I am thinking the output shaft is being twisted due to the torque that is being applied from the 1st gear ratio. I am thinking of the band release and direct clutch coming on and maybe a slight bump of overlap. Are you thinking that at 2-3 shift the overlap is unloading then reloading the output shaft on 2-3 shift?
build a 200-4R for 1,000 HP
- Thread starter LSJM1
- Start date
Good. You're getting there. Go beyond what the clutch pack is mechanically doing and think of what is happening from a physics point of view. I'm biting at the bit to give you guys some clues, but that would be too much of a hint. I'd like to see you guys think this one out. Maybe someone else will jump in and offer some clues or comparisons.
You are killing me. I should be working but yet I am thinking about this. If there is overlap and you got to have a slight amount. The output shaft will stop for a for a fraction of millisecond second. If that really does happen then the output shaft would be loaded in the opposite direction of rotation and then after the band releases and 3rd is on full it would then switch the twist of the shaft back to direction of rotation causing a loading of clockwise to counter clockwise to clockwise again.
That's the idea. To make you guys think about this problem. You're thinking about the rest of the transmission too much. Take the high/rev clutch pack out of the transmission and put it on a test bench in a clutch testing dyno room all by itself. Connect an input shaft to a hub that will spline into the inner teeth of the friction plates. The outer shell of the drum will be connected to an output shaft. For the rest of this exercise we will no longer think of any other parts of the transmission. Let's make the output shaft to be about the same strength as a stock 200-4R output shaft.
Let's answer this question first. What is the definition of physics. It is the science of ...
You're thought process needs to take a different direction. Look the definition up in a dictionary or encyclopedia.
Let's start out by listing some of the areas of study covered by the science of physics that pertains to our problem.
This is amusing.The output never stops because the front planet is on,and the car is moving.THE REAR PLANET IS AN IDLER IN 2ND,THE FRONT DOES THE WORK.It is the front gear set alone that creates the 1.57 ratio 2nd gearthe problems encountered with the shaft are just like what is going on when an input shaft or drum breaks,the parts are loaded beyond the materials structural limitations.It has absolutely nothing to do with the application of the 3rd clutch.the high drum drives the rear sun gear from a stationary position to input speed rpm in hi gear.this locks the gearset together for direct drive.it takes the front planet out of reduction and locks it.
I personally dont think the output shaft stops either it was only used for example.
Ok Don. enough is enough I know what you are doing. If you have something Stop the smoke screen and lay out what you got.
Let's give others a chance to participate.
Just what is it that you think I'm doing? Smoke screen? Why do you guys think that I always have some evil intention behind the scenes? Simple discussion and analysis is not allowed? Or maybe I'm just not allowed to participate in it? Which is it?
A typical bind up on a synchronized shift will attempt to lockup the transmission. Of course, it doesn't, but something does happen to absorb the energy that was trying to lockup the transmission. And that energy is converted to ...
Hint.
If the band lets off before the direct clutch applys itll go into first gear for a milisecond,making the drum turn backwards for maybe 1/10th of a degree and then back clockwise with the input shaft.if the direct comes on too fast with the band applied itll try stop the lock the gearset but never will before the clutch comes on because the band knock off is the third accumulator. the design of the input housing can handle alot more deflection than this however this is not what breaks the output shaft no matter how you view it.my seperator and mods as well as what many have been doing forthe last 20 years with this unit makes the bind up of absolutelt no concern .it has already been fixed.the problem was and always is when no corrected too large of an orifice between the 3rd clutch and 3rd accumulator circuits.the open or closed 3/2 control valve and seperator plate orifice is larger than WHAT IS OPTIMUM FOR THIS CIRCUIT .115 TO .120.this is fixed with the 3/2 control valve mod and plate.an overlap ship can be tuned to work properly.this is obviously apparent by millions of cars and trucks(jatco baby) on the road that use this system
OK. Back to our clutch test cell. Forget about the synchronized shift. We need to get to the basics here. It's just the direct clutch. Let's spin the input to 1000 rpm. You now have the hp of the motor, and the rotating inertia of the spinning motor components, the input shaft and the clutch hub. There is an energy value associated with the hp of the motor and the rotating inertia of all the spinning components.
Let's connect a large wheel to the output shaft that will simulate the weight of a 3500 lb car. At this point, the clutch is not applied and the output shaft is not spinning.
Now, let's apply the clutch pack with a start to finish time for the shift of .2 seconds. The energy at the input shaft will be transfered to the output shaft.
Some of the energy will be converted to work. That work will spin the output shaft and the weight.
Some of the energy will be lost to friction at various bearing locations.
Some of the energy will be converted to ???? during the application of the clutch.
Typical figures for hp loss through the drivetrain are 10% to 20%. That is energy that is absorbed as it travels through the drivetrain. Energy does not just disappear. It will go through various changes in state. So the energy that is not used to spin the wheels will be converted to what?
Let's connect a large wheel to the output shaft that will simulate the weight of a 3500 lb car. At this point, the clutch is not applied and the output shaft is not spinning.
Now, let's apply the clutch pack with a start to finish time for the shift of .2 seconds. The energy at the input shaft will be transfered to the output shaft.
Some of the energy will be converted to work. That work will spin the output shaft and the weight.
Some of the energy will be lost to friction at various bearing locations.
Some of the energy will be converted to ???? during the application of the clutch.
Typical figures for hp loss through the drivetrain are 10% to 20%. That is energy that is absorbed as it travels through the drivetrain. Energy does not just disappear. It will go through various changes in state. So the energy that is not used to spin the wheels will be converted to what?
The most basic form of energy known to man! Heat! Yes! Yes! Yes!
Since we don't want to just instantaneously have the output shaft go to the speed of the input shaft, that would just break parts or quickly fatique them to the point of eventual breakage, we use a clutch to absorb some of the energy as the output speed comes up and the engine speed comes down during this engagement of transfer of power (energy).
So, back to my original question. The high/rev clutch has the job of transferring work energy to output and the job of energy (heat) absorber and heat management.
As the amount of work (torque input) goes up, should the capacities of energy absorber and heat management stay constant? Or, should those capacities increase to handle the higher load demand that will be asked of them? Hint. Think of braking systems. A brake converts motion energy to heat when you want to stop the motion. If the speed and/or load that you are trying to stop is increased, are not braking systems also upgraded to handle increased heat that will be generated from the conversion of motion energy to heat energy?
What are the options we have to control heat generation, absorbtion and management with the high/rev clutch in a 200-4R?
Don I think you have lost your mind.Try to stay on topic.We all know about the heat generated in a transmission.That is one of the reasons why it runs in a thermo controlled bath of oil.Basic operation of every clutch pack sees this type of scenario,not just the high clutch.The job of the transmission is to take input torque,regulate it thru gears and drive the vehicle.You are using very poor examples and I am very surprised at your explanations here.Get on the ball man.
Then I guess I'm going to keep surprising you.
Heat generation is a major factor in a high performance transmission.
Or, should I say avoiding heat generation is a major concern with a high performance transmission.
Again, I ask, what are the options we have to control heat generation, absorbtion and management with the high/rev clutch in a 200-4R?
Stay with me Chris. There's an end to this journey. I just want to make sure that everyone, not just transmission techs, understand.
blackplague
Are you watching Phil?
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Inertia?
blackplague
Are you watching Phil?
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
duh!
Haha, i just read the post's behind this one. What a knuckle head!!!
Haha, i just read the post's behind this one. What a knuckle head!!!
