Engine ?

[6togo]

So here is a question at what level is a stronger block needed like going from a forged ,capped, girdled 109 or 291 to a Stage 2 or TA block? I guess what i am getting at is will a well built 109/291 handle 9 sec power for a long term? Not that it would see it all the time but worst case!
Chris

 

[longball]

A forged, capped, girdled 109, with all other variable being equal will have no problem going 9's. Will it do 9's all day, every day? I wouldn't count on it, better have a good tune

 

[Nick Micale]

There is about a 250-300 HP difference from high 9's to low 9's.

An occasional run in the high 9's normally will not kill a 109 block, but a diet of low 9's is bomb waiting to blow.

With the tune not right, you can self-destruct even before the 10's!

 

[6togo]

High 9's would be my max goal for now and that would be once in a while. I would guess no matter what block combo you have if its not tuned right your going to find disaster! I just want to build a solid engine the first time around and need to decide if a stage 2 is the better way to go at that level of power or just drop the money on a nice 291 stroker with a girdle and forged assm.
Chris

 

[SHADOWII]

If you can afford it, build the TA and "forget about it!" The stage II is probably more costly. The Stock 3.8/4.1 w/all the goodies is still expensive!

 

[6togo]

I do really like the TA block but not the price tag but compared to Stage blocks it ain't much more!

 

[forcefed3.8's]

Don't let the 8 and low 9 sec TSM cars fool you. The ones that hold up are not average blocks with average prep work, and the others are going through blocks like candy.

 

[blackgn1]

TSM 109 Blocks have gone low 9's and even 8's. What has been done to them is anyones guess. Top Secret information there.

 

[6togo]

So how about we do this how many guys out there running stroked 3.8's and 4.1's with forged internals and beefed lower end by way of caps or girdle running in the high to mid 9's without any major issues and just how long?
Chris

 

[turbofabricator]

Reliable 9 second pass on a budget?...........a Chevy truck 5.3 "LS" V8. Best way to make big power on a budget. Add a turbo 400 and it'll last for years. Even a StageII (or TA) is making big power per cylinder. Stuff happens FAST learning how to make it live. Hire Cal Hartline to tune it and it will be the best money spent on your build (V6 or otherwise)

 

[forcefed3.8's]

Reliable 9 second pass on a budget?...........a Chevy truck 5.3 "LS" V8. Best way to make big power on a budget. Add a turbo 400 and it'll last for years. Even a StageII (or TA) is making big power per cylinder. Stuff happens FAST learning how to make it live. Hire Cal Hartline to tune it and it will be the best money spent on your build (V6 or otherwise)

Could not agree more!!! High 9's isn't really pushing it. You have to remember, there are alot of casting variations from block to block. Some are stronger than others. I have sonic test results from a 109 block that isn't suitable for high hp with a stock bore. HP to HP, a V8 has to make less power per cylinder, less pressure per cylinder. Not to mention the 109 block was made for economy in a bad time, as cheap as possible. Its a wonder they were as fast as they were from the factory, let alone expecting 8's from them.

 

[6togo]

I relize the blocks are the weak links and already have the LSX conversion in my mind but i really think the GN should have a turbo 6 but who knows i could be swayed either way!
Chris

 

[TurboTGuy]

So how about we do this how many guys out there running stroked 3.8's and 4.1's with forged internals and beefed lower end by way of caps or girdle running in the high to mid 9's without any major issues and just how long?
Chris

Not trying to be a dick, but maybe you should:

A. Ask a real TR builder to give you the info you seek for free.......see how far you get.

Don't get me wrong, these gentlemen are a pretty great bunch of guys, and will tak TR's all day long...but seriously fast TR's, and the knowledge to make them that way is part of, if not specifically, how these guys pay the rent. None of the knoweledge came to them for free.

B. Stop asking the same question phrased differently.

C. Spend your own money figuring it out, like the consistent high 8 to low 9 second TSM guys have had to do.

I'm only in the mid-low tens and I have a BOATLOAD of money invested. My builder/friend and often mentor spent a great deal of time, effort, thought and energy in his attempt to:

A. Understand my vision of the car and my ultimate goal.

B. Considering my budget and giving me the best "bang for the buck".

C. Providing me, at a fair market value, his expertise, insight, knowledge and assistance in
helping me to build the car of my dreams.

Expensive? Maybe a bit.

Priceless? You bet your ASS!

Just so you know, I'm running a stroked 109, forged internals, and steel caps.

The guys who build/own/race 8-9 second TR's have TONS more money tied up in their cars.

It's the guy's who know how to build 'em and have spent the better part of their lives learning to do so that deserve the respect.

Think about it.

Again, I'm not trying to be a dick, yet I'm sure I'm coming off as one.

It's OK, I'm pretty sure I'll be able to sleep tonight......

I'm jus' sayin.

 

[Chris Hogeland]

When done right the 109 will hold up just fine to 9s.

 

[charlief1]

I will give you a small idea of the time it takes to figure out what you want to do and how you want to do it. My car is an 83 carbed/turbo draw through system. None of the stock appearing (sp) draw through systems have made it below 11's without nitrous or other help, and that's high 11's. I got the car in 07 and have been gathering parts for several years as well as knowledge on this and other boards. I post most of the info I have for the pure fact that no one has posted it before. I'm not about to tell all of it though, because of the fact that I've spent so much frigging time trying to figure out how to do it I'm not about to give all of the info away for free.

There's tons of info on the board if you're willing to take the time to do the research and understand how to make the vehicle perform, but there's no free rides here. You may blow a head gasket at the very least or you might even be able to join in the driven club. That's where you get to drive over the crank as you get off the line. Haven't done that yet but I have blown a few head gaskets before. If you want a turn key car buy one with a V8 in it, but if you want a car that will kick butt and do it with less cylinders as well as make the "fast" guys feel like idiots then stick around.

 

[turbofabricator]

When done right the 109 will hold up just fine to 9s.

Yep. And when you have a tune up "issue"..............POP! goes the weasel. If you POP a 5.3 LS short block.....you run down to the local wrecking yard and buy another one for $500. Just try and buy a 109 shortblock for $500. Reliability is the key. I can build a 109 for 9 second passes. It's not rocket science, but it IS big money just for machine work, and parts. A STOCK 5.3 short block will run mid nines with ease. I've been building/owning Buicks for more years than most on here have. I really love to whup up on V8's. But these days it's getting MUCH harder. They all have learned form "US", the Turbo Buick Community. Now they have reverse engineered what we have been doing for 25 years. But then again........budget and 9 second 1/4 mile passes just CAN'T be used in the same sentence. Certified chassis, fire suit, neck collar, helmet, license, fuel, fire-X, stronger rear end, GOOD brakes, parachute, window net, two-step, delay box, ignition system, fuel system ($$$$$$) and you will start seeing the benefit of a cheap short block. Hot Rod magazine made 1200+ H.P on a completely STOCK 4.8 LS V8 short block (they did open the stock ring gap up a few thou., though) Some guys on here just cannot agree with the obvious.........The technology of the Turbo Buick has morphed to the other brands and due to modern engine designs, it is working MUCH better now. Wouldn't it be nice to have six bolt mains on a 109 block? and cylinder heads that flow 340 cfm outta the box? I personally LOVE the new stuff. GM, Ford, and even Mopar.
If you have the $$,.......... Build a 109 and terrorize the V8 guys. It IS fun to do that.

 

[6togo]

First off i am asking general questions here not the holy grail of building secrects and i know regardless of what i build it will cost money when that time comes one of the builders will get my money i purely need to know the best direction to go i thought that is what this forum is for asking and learning. Second i am not afraid to spend money on the build and have in my mind it will be 10-15K for the motor and it will have 9sec. capability that is my goal and has been. Once i start the build i will just not throw parts at it figuring if they work it will be the right combo regardless of a v6 or LS. I do fully respect everyone that shares their time and knowledge they have from years of trial and error if it were not for them these forums would be worthless so dont take my line of questions as asking for trade secrets all i wanted to know is if building a stock block and run it in the 9's will it last (properly tuned) any period of time before it goes Boom! The LS swap is a nice option but requires a ton of fab work for the exhaust and intercooler which when said and done is probably the same as the V6 build but it is still not out of the question!
TurboTguy you did come off as a Dick i would hope you ask tons of questions before throwing money at your build figuring it out like you suggest i do! I slept great last night also i guess your post had that effect on me!
Chris

 

[Grumpy]

Yep. And when you have a tune up "issue"..............POP! goes the weasel. .......budget and 9 second 1/4 mile passes just CAN'T be used in the same sentence.

thats the bottom line. Budget can work BUT if the car has a hiccup it gets really ugly @ 24#s of TSM boost

 

[Chris Hogeland]

The stock 5.3 might run 9s but it want do it for long. I've seen it first hand! I've had guys bring them to the shop after they have done it A few times and it's not A pretty sight. Don't get me wrong the LS stuff is grate but why is every body pushing so hard for people to go V8? That's why we all come to this sight right to keep the V6 going ? I have A passion for them and think the V6 is the only way to go. But that's just me.

 

[Mike E]

?.. Second i am not afraid to spend money on the build and have in my mind it will be 10-15K for the motor and it will have 9sec. capability that is my goal and has been....

10-15k will easily build a low 9 sec capable stage 2 or ta block motor. But, that wont include everything else needed to support it.

I've got about 13k in my 275"" ta headed on center motor using a used stage 2 block. Thats intake to pan. My motor should easily be able to go 8's. I could have put an imported crank and rods in it and saved a little more and still be low 9 sec. Capable.