I might need a fuel pump. Which to get?

[Ttype6]

If you seriously want to run E85 in the tens you are going to need a serious fuel system to support it.

You'll need to drill out the four Saginaw fittings on the fuel supply line and install Red's double XP set-up. DONE.

 

[Ttype6]

A Hotwire is a must,too.

To heat the fuel,even,more?

 

[Ttype6]

Is there anything I've written that isn't true?

 

[Nick Micale]

I am somewhat confused about the "issue" of heating the fuel being returned to the tank? In all my years of doing turbo car, this is the first time I have heard it being an issue?

First of all, no matter which pump is being used, the regulator controls pressure and how much fuel returns to the tank,

With my understanding of an AC system, vapor is compressed and becomes hot, when it gets to the expansion valve and exits at a lower pressure, it become cooler.

So if we compare the 2 systems, fuel and AC, maybe the fuel is cooler leaving the regulator and returning to the tank, especially as it runs through the long lines to the tank?

What am I missing here?

If you do not like a DW pump, I could care less, I do not have to defend its performance to you, as my customer's trust me and what I sell or recommend.

Actually with all your negativity towards me and the DW pump, you probably have done a great service for me!

 

[Ttype6]

The stock 1/4" return line is marginal in normal use

When used with a DW pump. With a single Walbro or a Doublepumper,it's not a problem and you can move enough fuel to supply a 1,000 hp motor on gasoline with the Doublepumper.

So,we can say that if you install a DW in your car,you might have to modify the return line. Ok,we have that out of the way. This provides useful information for some one who might not want to modify. He can,mow,make a more informed decision.

First, you cannot have too much fuel flowing if the regulator is doing it's job, and the system is set up properly

You have too much fuel flowing back to the tank,at an idle. It overcomes the return lines ability to move fuel and it heats the fuel up more. That's the only too much fuel flowing that we're talking about.

If the regulator is doing it's job at an idle,the direct result is a lot of fuel being returned to the tank. I'm not sure what this statement means.

With the "personal" BS behind us.

I'm gonna guess that you are accusing me of this BS. If that's the case,I hope you will quote something I said that wasn't true.

 

[John Wilde]

Guys let's keep this conversation about the pumps and the TS's original question.
Suggesting that a vendor/member would sell something that is not correct for the application is not appropriate here.
Feed back regarding the pump is appropriate here, just not the implication.
If you have a personal negative experience bring it to the feedback section.

We are going to try one in a local car pretty soon.
It has aftermarket lines.
I was looking at putting one in my driver with 100% stock lines.
It seems like a good replacement for a Walbro 340 with about 60k miles on it.
Until I have some direct exposure, I can't give an opinion.

 

[Ttype6]

I am somewhat confused about the "issue" of heating the fuel being returned to the tank? In all my years of doing turbo car, this is the first time I have heard it being an issue?

When you send fuel up to the motor it gets heated by the motor. When it goes back to the tank,it adds heat to the fuel in the tank. If your primary fuel pump is a DW,the regulator will send more fuel back to the tank because there is more fuel being sent to the motor that the motor doesn't need. If you replace your primary pump with one that puts out more volume,more fuel will be sent back to the tank.

With my understanding of an AC system, vapor is compressed

What am I missing here?

You can't compress liquids.

If you do not like a DW pump, I could care less, I do not have to defend its performance to you, as my customer's trust me and what I sell or recommend.

I invite you to show a quote from me where I said I don't like the DW pump.
I,also haven't denied it's performance. I don't dispute that it flows more fuel volume than the Walbro. It's this fact,which I acknowledge,that causes me to choose another pump for my single pump application or my primary pump in a Double pumper application.

I haven't been negative ,I've pointed to the negatives so someone else can make a more informed decision.

 

[Ttype6]

My Walbro mght be out. Which pump to get now? I want to stay with a single pump. I am getting a RJC F/M. My goals are 10.5 in the 1/4. I have a TE-66 big shaft turbo. I might get Alchy soon and E-85 conversion sometime later. Please chime in. I know of the Supra, Stealth, Bosch 044, and Deutche? pumps.

Sorry,we can't comment on our experiences with any pumps we've,ever used. Looks like you're on your own.

 

[Boost231]

You'll need to drill out the four Saginaw fittings on the fuel supply line and install Red's double XP set-up. DONE.

And when one pump fails your motor is DONE.

 

[HighMileage]

To heat the fuel,even,more?

I'd like to see some tests and actual numbers on this *fuel heating* issue in another thread.

Just how much heat dissipates from this *heated fuel* while it is away from engine heat?

Is it worse to have the fuel pumped to the engine,then sit there without being returned?

Maybe it's time to find that Cool Can I've got stashed away somewhere?

 

[Ttype6]

And when one pump fails your motor is DONE.

Sounds like this is a good reason to not use one pump.

 

[Ttype6]

I'd like to see some tests and actual numbers on this *fuel heating* issue in another thread.

It sounds as though you think it's possible to send the fuel from a cool environment to a hot environment without the fuel soaking up some of the heat. Is this what you believe?

Just how much heat dissipates from this *heated fuel* while it is away from engine heat?

In this statement,it looks as though you agree that the heat would soak into the fuel and that it isn't a problem because the heat would dissipate. Where would the heat in the fuel dissipate to?

Is it worse to have the fuel pumped to the engine,then sit there without being returned?

Of course it would be. The next best thing to do would be to pump a lot of fuel to the motor and return,most of it (along with the heat it soaked up) back to the tank. This is what a DW pump does.

The next best system would be a system that sends a little more fuel than the motor needs,at any given time, so that less fuel would be returned to the tank along with the heat it soaked up. This is what a double pumper does.

The best system would send,only,the amount of fuel that the motor needs and no more. This is the kind of fuel system that some of the new factory hot rods come with. It's called pulse width modulation and this system has no return line. I wonder why they do that?

Maybe it's time to find that Cool Can I've got stashed away somewhere?

Wouldn't that cool the fuel down? Why would carbureted racers want to do this?

 

[Ttype6]

Here are the only two questions,that a person who was looking at the DW pump, should ask.
Is there a possibility that I'll have to modify my return line if I buy this pump.
Will this pump heat my fuel up more than a lower volume pump.

These are the only two possible down sides to this pump and should be mentioned in the sales pitch.
Again,I'm writing this because the OP wants as much information as possible so he can make the best choice possible for his situation.

If anyone doesn't mind modifying or replacing the return line,he might want to buy this pump.
There are people in the world who might not like the idea of a system that heats the fuel more.
If you like the Idea of warmer fuel,buy the pump.

Can someone,please answer these two questions correctly.There's only one correct answer to these questions and everyone knows what they are.
Each question can be answered with a yes or no.

 

[Boost231]

Sounds like this is a good reason to not use one pump.

if i run one pump and it fails the car wont run, you have one pump fail to turn on at high boost and your motor is DONE.

 

[Boost231]

Here are the only two questions,that a person who was looking at the DW pump, should ask.
Is there a possibility that I'll have to modify my return line if I buy this pump.
Will this pump heat my fuel up more than a lower volume pump.

These are the only two possible down sides to this pump and should be mentioned in the sales pitch.
Again,I'm writing this because the OP wants as much information as possible so he can make the best choice possible for his situation.

If anyone doesn't mind modifying or replacing the return line,he might want to buy this pump.
There are people in the world who might not like the idea of a system that heats the fuel more.
If you like the Idea of warmer fuel,buy the pump.

Can someone,please answer these two questions correctly.There's only one correct answer to these questions and everyone knows what they are.
Each question can be answered with a yes or no.

I shouldn't even waste my time with this,

Is there a possibility that I'll have to modify my return line if I buy this pump. Yes, there is a possibility. And if he is one of the very few that does have to modify his return its a simple process.

Will this pump heat my fuel up more than a lower volume pump. Yes, but will the lower volume pump supply enough fuel for the application given?

If you like the Idea of warmer fuel,buy the pump. Please inlighten us on much heat it might add to the fuel . Please provide some Data showing how much and what the negative effect the slight increase in temp is doing. i know this pump and the slight fuel temp is not causing vapor lock...

Also will 2 walbro's heat the fuel more then 1 DW pump? Thats a yes or no question as well.

So a double pumper is heating the fuel more then a single dw right? but yet the DW wont supply as much as the DP so its the same BS

 

[Ttype6]

If i run one pump and it fails the car wont run.

Do you know anyone or have you heard of anyone who,while in the middle of a quarter mile pass,has had there single pump turn off like a light switch. No. What happens,in reality,is that the pump gets less efficient and the WOT fuel pressure starts to fall over time. If you monitor well,you catch it. If you don't it can bite you.
There are many things that can go wrong when you push a motor to its limits. That's not what we're talking about.

you have one pump fail to turn on at high boost and your motor is DONE.

How many people has this happened to? The pump that fails the most,in the turbo Buick world,is the alky motor. Do you recommend that no one use alky injection because this might happen? No. Again,this isn't the issue. Even if these second pumps where dropping dead left and right,does it negate the fact that the DW pump can require a fuel return modification. No. Remember,this is what is at question here. we're just giving all the pros and cons of the DW so the OP can make an informed choice.

 

[Ttype6]

I shouldn't even waste my time with this,

Is there a possibility that I'll have to modify my return line if I buy this pump. Yes, there is a possibility. And if he is one of the very few that does have to modify his return its a simple process.

It might be simple for you,but not for some. Some people don't want to modify there lines. That's why they need to be aware that it might be necessary. Again,we're just making them aware.

Will this pump heat my fuel up more than a lower volume pump. Yes, but will the lower volume pump supply enough fuel for the application given?

People who own Buicks from stock to heavily modified will be considering the purchase of this pump. The Walbro will satisfy the needs of the stock to 500hp level. It won't heat up the fuel as much and it won't require the modification or replacement of the stock return line. Again,these are the only concerns that some might have a problem with. The OP for instance. So he needs to be told about these issues so he can make the choice. If the lower volume single pump isn't enough for the application,we can add a second pump and there will still be no need to modify the return line,nor will there be a heat issue.

If you like the Idea of warmer fuel,buy the pump.

This statement speaks for itself. Some people might not like this fact and should be told about it.

Also will 2 walbro's heat the fuel more then 1 DW pump? Thats a yes or no question as well.

No. The majority of people ,in the turbo Buick community,drive there cars on the street. This is when the fuel is getting returned to the tank in large quantities and getting heated. If you run a double pumper set-up,the second pump is never on while cruising. You're only moving a volume of fuel that the primary pump is producing. If you have a larger primary or a single DW,more fuel gets heated and returned to the tank.

This is why people need to be aware of this.Once they're aware,they can make there own choice.

DP so its the same BS

Please,feel free to quote a statement of mine that isn't true so others can see it.

 

[Boost231]

Do you know anyone or have you heard of anyone who,while in the middle of a quarter mile pass,has had there single pump turn off like a light switch. No. What happens,in reality,is that the pump gets less efficient and the WOT fuel pressure starts to fall over time. If you monitor well,you catch it. If you don't it can bite you.
There are many things that can go wrong when you push a motor to its limits. That's not what we're talking about.



How many people has this happened to? The pump that fails the most,in the turbo Buick world,is the alky motor. Do you recommend that no one use alky injection because this might happen? No. Again,this isn't the issue. Even if these second pumps where dropping dead left and right,does it negate the fact that the DW pump can require a fuel return modification. No. Remember,this is what is at question here. we're just giving all the pros and cons of the DW so the OP can make an informed choice.

Before you answer a question your asking me, make sure you know the correct answer. I have seen a double pumper fail to turn on. This would have been very bad news if it was at the track instead of the dyno. We where able to abort the run before damage to the motor was done. So yes i have seen it. Also i have seen the hobbs switch fail to active the second pump. Also not everyone w is going to monitor their fuel pressure. Some only run a scanmaster. Not everyone will log FP with a PL or XFI.

The pump that fails the most is the alky pump? Really ? i have seen them drop pressure over time but never fail when i used them. If their are failures, i would expect them to be from, poor wiring, maintance, clean meth, not servicing the pump and running them for years and years and letting alky always sit in them. If i was to say the pump that fails the most in the buick world is the Walbro that would be more accurate.

I recommend people keep a eye on what their fuel system needs are, and maintaine them so you dont have failures.

Are you saying i can run a DP with out possibility of me needing to modify the return? If i recall correctly i have seen a post about this happening. i will try and find it. if your neeeds are right at the limit of on pump and the second kicks on the return is going to be overwhelmed as well.

 

[Boost231]

It might be simple for you,but not for some. Some people don't want to modify there lines. That's why they need to be aware that it might be necessary. Again,we're just making them aware.

Yes simple for me. How many people have had this issue? i would say there is a 95% chance they will be fine. if they do have a return issue its a easy fix that we can guide them and get it fixed. Your making it sound like where butchering the cars fuel lines to make them flow if they have a return issue.


People who own Buicks from stock to heavily modified will be considering the purchase of this pump. The Walbro will satisfy the needs of the stock to 500hp level. It won't heat up the fuel as much and it won't require the modification or replacement of the stock return line. Again,these are the only concerns that some might have a problem with. The OP for instance. So he needs to be told about these issues so he can make the choice. If the lower volume single pump isn't enough for the application,we can add a second pump and there will still be no need to modify the return line,nor will there be a heat issue.

I'm still waiting on you to provide data on this fuel heating issue and how its going to effect the car.


This statement speaks for itself. Some people might not like this fact and should be told about it.



No. The majority of people ,in the turbo Buick community,drive there cars on the street. This is when the fuel is getting returned to the tank in large quantities and getting heated. If you run a double pumper set-up,the second pump is never on while cruising. You're only moving a volume of fuel that the primary pump is producing. If you have a larger primary or a single DW,more fuel gets heated and returned to the tank.

This is why people need to be aware of this.Once they're aware,they can make there own choice.

Again, Please provide data of this fuel heating issue on the walbro vs DW. They heat difference will be nill if anything.



Please,feel free to quote a statement of mine that isn't true so others can see it.

This is how i fell on the issue,

You have a slim chance you will have a return line overwhelming with the DW.If you do this can be fixed by drilling out a few fittings in the return line.

If you don't want to do that Eric at TT can make a chip to help with the higher base Fuel pressure.

A Double pumper has a few flaws its self, the hobbs switch can fail but not likely. You can have a hose blow of or, a crack in the hose going to the hobbs switch so keep and eye on the condition of the vac lines. you can have the second pump fail since Walbor's are know to fail. You can also possibliy have a overwhelming issue with the DP if your car doesn't need the extra fuel.

Fuel heating or heating of the fuel is a bunch of BS in our cars. I have yet to see anyone on this board ever have a issue or a concern with heating of fuel.

I have had fuel heating issues before but not in my Turbo buick.

 

[87-WE2]

I have been paying a lot of attention to a lot of dialogue with respect to fuel pumps as i'm considering purchasing one. I have not decided what pump to buy yet. However, i have decided what pump to NOT buy and that is a Walbro. I am sorry Ttype6, but even after your repeated barrages of rhetoric with respect to warmer gas, i would much rather have warmer gas than none at all. I have seen MANY threads about premature walbro failures and thr lack of customer service after the sale with them. I don't need a warranty. I need to know the product I'm buying is quality, and that the company manufacturing the product will stand behind their work in the event of a premature failure, or premature decline in performance. Again, I'm going off of research on here a out guys like me who bought walbros, were dissatisfied, and were shined on by the maker.

I said this before and will say it again: i don't need a warranty. If the product in the box is a POS and has a lifetime warranty, it just means i'm going to learn how to replace that part very well, since i will probably have to ho thru several of them to get a good one (i.e. Rebuilt powermaster units!!!)

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you; i'm just saying that no matter how much you tout that a single walbro is the way for anybody to go, i have decided on My own and based on my research that it's not right for me. I believe that there are many more board members who feel the same way.

By the way, i felt that your comment about nick's integrity towards selling DW pumps even though there may be a waterfall of gas flowing from the motor was way out of line and did nothing but cause me to have a lesser opinion of the many comments you make on the board. Just thought it was a low blow.