Innovative DB gauge reads ~ .5-.7 points lower than PowerLogger

turbo96max

Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Has anyone had this issue as well ?
It logs and reads fine. Just the pl unit / scanmaster will read say 13.0 when the db gauge reads 12.3-12.4 . I was on a dyno and recorded a couple pulls just to sort things out and the dyno was reading around 11.0 when the pl logged 11.6 more or less.

I changed the settings on the logworks initially . as before it wouldnt show any legitimate numbers on the scanmaster, it was wayyy off from what i remember.

is this generally accepted and you just tune it higher if thats the case? because i would trust the db gauge over the pl logging .

any pointers?
 
they should match..

where is your wideband grounded?

what gauge is it? does it connect via analog, or digital?

if the car is cruising in closed loop, the o2 should be toggling, and the wideband should be wiggling around 14.7 or so.

Bob
 
It is the innovative digital (db) gauge. All grounds are grounded to the bottom of the dash then another wire from there to the intake(same as ignition coil) which is also tied to the back of the passenger head. I mean both the gauge and the wire for the pl source fron the same controller so im a bit lost. Could the wire length or gauge be an issue? Im running a 12 gauge I think when the controllers analaog out is something lije 16 18 gauge.

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Im using innovate kit 3795. Wired in as the instructions say. The pl block is not being grounded also.

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The critical part when connecting one of these controllers is to make sure that the 0V reference is correct. This means the 0V reference from the controller MUST be wired to a sensor 0V on your ECU. Wiring the 0V to a chassis ground instead can result in a voltage offset that skews your AFR readings.
 
Dont think the lc1 has a 0v reference that needs to be wired anywhere. If I remember correctly it has 2 analog outputs yellor and brown. Ground. 12v ign.

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The earth wire lol needs to earth to whatever it's feeding so if pl has an earth earth it there

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PL reference is the engine.

the LC1 has 2 ground wires (if I remember)

the DB gauge is an analog gauge (reads the analog signal), but displays it on a digital reading. so it is affected by ground offsets.

everything needs to be grounded to the same place. the engine is the best place.

but you can use a voltmeter and see where the discrepancy is.

Bob
 
Bob. All the innovate parts are on the same ground.gauge controller calibration switch.
Do I need to ground the pl unit there also? Which wire do I need to check fornground reference on the pl unit?

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I have a ground running from thr head, to the intake,to the firewall, then into the under dash in the same lug all the innovate stuff is bolted. Ill check now to make sure nothing came loose.

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the PL uses the ECM ground, don't add another one.

do you have a DVM you can make some measurements with?

Bob
 
I dont have one but I can go buy one. Just a digital multimeter that has resistance and voltage is what I need?

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that kind of thing is pretty much required equipment with these cars...

Bob
 
Yup. Had one but I realised it stopped working recently. What wire is the ecm ground wire I should be comparing to the lc1 grounds? Or do I also compare the ouout on both analog outpuy wires?

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This is from the innovate web site forum.

Ground offsets 101
Hi,

A lot of people have problems understanding correct grounding and how it effects AFR to voltage conversion of the analog outs of an LC-1.
Lets first look at the basics of what is going on there electrically:

Think of Voltage as the pressure in a line (measured in Volts, symbol V).
Different to pressure though, there is no “absolute” Voltage. Voltage can only be measured as “pressure” difference between 2 points.
Current is the amount of flow of electrons, like gallons per minute in a water line. Current is measured in Amperes or amps (symbol I).
When water flows through a line, there’s a pressure loss along the line because the of the friction of water against the pipe walls and other restriction. Same goes for electrical current. Everything that conducts electricity has a resistance to that current flow and therefore causes a Voltage (pressure) loss along that conductor. The resistance is measured in Ohms (symbol R).
The Voltage (pressure loss) along a conductor follows Ohms law:

V = R * I (Voltage loss is resistance times current).

Different to a home plumbing system, the electrical current runs closed loop. What goes out of the + side must come back on the ground (-) side.
This “return” current is what creates ground offsets.
When the engine is running, the alternator acts as “pump” for the electrons. The battery is then just an electrical power consumer, like everything else. The “head” side of the alternator is its B+ terminal. The “suction” side of the alternator is the body of the alternator itself, that usually has good contact with the engine block.
All the current for all electrical systems in the car has to flow through the ground strap of the engine. If for example the total electrical current load of the car is 10A, these 10A have to flow through the frame and then through the ground strap back to the alternator/engine block.
If there is electrical resistance in that path, as there always is, a voltage loss is created along that path. For example if the path resistance is 0.1 Ohms, at 10A a voltage loss of 1 Volt is created. This means that the frame sits at +1V when measured against the engine block (remember, voltages can only be measured as difference between 2 points).

Now assume the ECU is grounded to the engine block, but your LC-1s system/analog out ground is grounded to the frame. The LC-1 measures its output voltage referenced to its “ground”, as that is the only zero reference it has. The ECU measures its O2 input voltage against a different zero reference, namely the engine block. As the LC-1’s zero reference sits 1V higher than the ECU reference, the ECU will read 2V on it’s input. Of course, you could compensate by programming the LC-1, but that is not a very good solution because:

a) The LC-1 cannot output what it regards as “negative” voltages. It references everything to its ground, and therefore 0V is at low as it can go. 0 Volt would even then be read as 1V by the ECU/datalogger/display.
b) The 1V ground offset as described in the above example depends on the current in the return path. With a 0.1 Ohm resistance in the return path and 10A electrical current you will have 1V. With 20A current you would have 2V. With 2A electrical current you would have an offset of only 0.2V.
c) The current load in a car, and therefore in the return path, can change very dramatically from 2-3 Amps to 50-100 Amps in milliseconds due to ignition systems, fans, a/c clutch and so on. These changing currents will create corresponding changing ground offsets which then is often wrongly attributed to "noisy analog outs". This "noise" can often be seen when displays intended for NBO2 sensors are used. On LED instruments, multiple LEDs will light up at the same time.

A better way is to ground the LC-1 to the same reference point where the receiver of the data, wether its ECU, datalogger or display instrument is grounded. This way all devices are “on the same page” and ground differentials somewhere else have no effect.

This is also the reason the LC-1 has different grounds for heater (large current) and system/analog out ground. The potential ground offsets created by the heater current when they are connected together can create its own problems. By connecting the heater ground to the same grounding metal as the rest you will minimize that effect. Therefore the best way is to ground the LC-1’s heater to the same area as the other grounds, but on a seperate bolt/lug. The contact points of bolts and lugs can account for 75-80% of the resistance of the connection and can change dramatically when corrosion sets in.
 
Does anyone know where yhe ecu is grounded so I can ground the lc1 to the same location?

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So difference in power will also have an affect kn the readings? As in the 12v sources for both the ecu and lc1?

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