here's a thought---------if the residue inside the intake is untouched the "clean" area at the rear might be due to the washing effect of the unatomized alcohol injected into the airstream----------alcohol seems like a good idea but i am not convinced that the injection method we use is very precise-------the additional mass of the liquid (in addition to its vastly different flash point) could easily cause it to pool and tend to favor the rear runners------if the alcohol is not suspended in the air it is not going to be distributed anywhere the same--------one thing is certain------if you had no injectors in the engine and relied on a nozzle like is used to inject alcohol for gasoline injection i doubt the engine would run worth a darn even if you could control the overall flow rate----------I'd be willing to make a long bet that you would be hard pressed to get anything close to even fuel distribution to all the cylinders-------i cannot picture that working at all so how can we expect for it to work for the alcohol???--------i think we need to develop a way to inject the alcohol in a manner that insures that it is atomized well so it will stay suspended in the air and be distributed in the same percentages as the air--------perhaps in extreme situations we are trying to add so much alcohol that it is not possible for it to be properly atomized no matter how we inject it-------just my thoughts.................RC
Intake manifold tract airflow distribution...
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Lots of good discussion,
what intercooler is on the car?
I assume he has the correct plate for the Precision plenum.
how much alcohol was he injecting? Was it pure Methanol, denatured, or some mixture?
What chip?
Do we know what happened to the motor yet? (gasket/piston/etc)
Bob
what intercooler is on the car?
I assume he has the correct plate for the Precision plenum.
how much alcohol was he injecting? Was it pure Methanol, denatured, or some mixture?
What chip?
Do we know what happened to the motor yet? (gasket/piston/etc)
Bob
Very good point Rich. There's lots of data out there showing that pre turbo is the most effecent way to add it. Granted my car is a draw through system so I'm somewhat biased but I did a lot of reading about it trying to figure out the best way to put alky in the engine. I'll even bring up the Smokey Unik (sp) Feiro that was a draw through car. Imagine a car that developed 250 HP and got 50 MPG, and all out of 2.5 liters.
Wish he was still around so I could ask him some questions.
Very good point Rich. There's lots of data out there showing that pre turbo is the most effecent way to add it. Granted my car is a draw through system so I'm somewhat biased but I did a lot of reading about it trying to figure out the best way to put alky in the engine. I'll even bring up the Smokey Unik (sp) Feiro that was a draw through car. Imagine a car that developed 250 HP and got 50 MPG, and all out of 2.5 liters.
I read another article about that same car, that felt he exaggerated a bit about the car's performance.
But. Back to this car.
If it was a stock car, stock heads,cam, a dual nozzle system is a lot of volume. So the tracks in the manifold may be due to spraying a LOT of alky, but not directly be the reason for the failure.
The gasket/engine failure may simply be due to hitting the stock rev limiter while the alky was spraying. This is a pretty common occurrance, unfortunately.
On spraying pre-turbo, if the droplet size is small enough that you don't "machine" the compressor wheel, then I have heard that this works well, but you have to be careful you don't puddle in the intercooler (there are some cool ways to solve this..). On a hot-air, this is less of a problem..
Bob
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There is liquid form, varying degrees of atomization, then there is vaporization. To hope for the alcohol being injected to make the turns in the intake and end up with equal distribution, it really needs to be vaporized. If vaporization cannot be obtained by the time the alcohol reaches the plenum, then the best method for injecting would be to port inject the alcohol.
As you inject higher quantities of alcohol, the chances for very fine atomization and vaporization become less favorable, which makes port injection more favorable.
As you inject higher quantities of alcohol, the chances for very fine atomization and vaporization become less favorable, which makes port injection more favorable.
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
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Also on launch and forward momentum causes the mixture to go to the rear of the intake. This is a inherent deal with people really placing large doses of meth in the intake strea.
Physics .......heavy item (heavy mix of alky)......forward inertia (lanuch/g's accelerating).....item (heavy mix) goes rearward in intake. Cant change that law.
Pondering this, I wonder if individual port injected meth would get as much cooling effect as pre throttle body. I have seen where the uppipe post nozzle sweats (from the alky cooling) on a humid day while purging the alky system on a engine held at 2k rpm.
With direct port spray there is less volume of meth to go rearward since its individual port.
But there is reversion pulses back into the intake tract, so would the reversion pulses hamper this?
The alky would be spraying the entire WOT event vs. the fuel injects that are pulsed into the port with event cycle.
Physics .......heavy item (heavy mix of alky)......forward inertia (lanuch/g's accelerating).....item (heavy mix) goes rearward in intake. Cant change that law.
Pondering this, I wonder if individual port injected meth would get as much cooling effect as pre throttle body. I have seen where the uppipe post nozzle sweats (from the alky cooling) on a humid day while purging the alky system on a engine held at 2k rpm.
With direct port spray there is less volume of meth to go rearward since its individual port.
But there is reversion pulses back into the intake tract, so would the reversion pulses hamper this?
The alky would be spraying the entire WOT event vs. the fuel injects that are pulsed into the port with event cycle.
As an interesting idea has any one ever tried injecting from the top of the dog house? If the spray is fine enough it might be a better place other than placing injectors directly in the ports.
My aux fuel supply system places constant flow nozzles at the entrance of each intake port, pointed straight down the middle. I haven't had any problem with it.
Check out this video.
Motor Renault-F1 - YouTube
Check out this video.
Motor Renault-F1 - YouTube
That's not really a problem on the Buick V6 since the intake stroke of the cylinders is timed to occur bank to bank.
If you're referring to the Crower injection stacks on a BB Chevy, the reason for the different height stacks is due to the flow properties of the different ports on a BB Chevy head. The way the BB Chevy ports are situated, some ports flow differently than others. The different stack heights are an attempt to make up for that property.
I have to admit, I don't recall what engine was being discussed. I am remembering a conversation I had a few years with some engineers at GM racing.
It may have been a 4cyl sprint car (dirt track) stuff, or some other class.
At any rate, back to the subject at hand.
Bob
It may have been a 4cyl sprint car (dirt track) stuff, or some other class.
At any rate, back to the subject at hand.
Bob
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Hehehe!
For a minute, I thot they had played the sound of my Stage engine on that Renault clip!!
For a minute, I thot they had played the sound of my Stage engine on that Renault clip!!
Obviously for the best alky distribution a port setup is the way to go, but why go through the hassle and expense when E85 is becoming more available all the time.
Personally I think all this talk of reversion messing with the fueling on a port setup if moot, I have a bank to bank FAST and many other vehicles work just fine on batch fire (spraying it in the plenum maybe a problem, but why would you ever do that stick the ports in the intake runners=done, or E85 through the injectors=done).
I personally haven't seen any issues with distribution, but I get the impression I'm not spraying as much alky as some of the faster guys that have hurt stuff...My only problem seems to be when I forgot to prime it (oops). Been running alky for probably 9 years on 2 cars, from 11's to mid 10's and the only time hurt something was the time I don't specifically remember priming it.
I run the car's I have messed with hard (27-30 psi all the time) which means heat to help vaporize the alky, and I run lots of pump pressure (not sure on numbers, but the gain is always 9 or more) with whatever nozzles (nozzle when I had my 11 sec. car) come with the kit...I'm still running mid 80's on duty cycle with 72's (about 580 RWHP) so I can't be replacing a whole lot of gas with alky. My plugs always look even as well.
Now could there come a day when this doesn't work for me anymore, absolutely but I don't know if my car will ever be fast enough to see where the limit is.
Personally I think all this talk of reversion messing with the fueling on a port setup if moot, I have a bank to bank FAST and many other vehicles work just fine on batch fire (spraying it in the plenum maybe a problem, but why would you ever do that stick the ports in the intake runners=done, or E85 through the injectors=done).
I personally haven't seen any issues with distribution, but I get the impression I'm not spraying as much alky as some of the faster guys that have hurt stuff...My only problem seems to be when I forgot to prime it (oops). Been running alky for probably 9 years on 2 cars, from 11's to mid 10's and the only time hurt something was the time I don't specifically remember priming it.
I run the car's I have messed with hard (27-30 psi all the time) which means heat to help vaporize the alky, and I run lots of pump pressure (not sure on numbers, but the gain is always 9 or more) with whatever nozzles (nozzle when I had my 11 sec. car) come with the kit...I'm still running mid 80's on duty cycle with 72's (about 580 RWHP) so I can't be replacing a whole lot of gas with alky. My plugs always look even as well.
Now could there come a day when this doesn't work for me anymore, absolutely but I don't know if my car will ever be fast enough to see where the limit is.
jpwalt1987
Well-Known Member
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Has anyone ever injected alky into plenum with something like a nitrous plate? It seems as though that would solve the distribution problem. Of course you would have to add a solenoid but thats not a big deal. You could also put the nozzle in the front of the lower intake or two smaller nozzles in the sides of the lower intake. The ulimate in atomization might be to use a small shot of nitrous along with the meth. It will definitaly be cold. Are my ideas flawed?? The distribution situation is the one reason I am not sure about alky injection. I hurt a motor 11 years ago and this was part of the reason I believe. thoughts??
DougsfastZ
4.1
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What controller was used for the Alky? If the car posted was spraying Alky before WOT or before boost pressures can properly atomize the Alky mixture, couldn't that cause a cleaning of the rear runners?
I have a DevilsOwn box that I basically use as an on off switch at 17 psi. If I creep into the throttle and watch the pump kick on at 17 psi, I can definitely feel the motor get saturated with Alky. I wonder if the same principle applies?
I have a DevilsOwn box that I basically use as an on off switch at 17 psi. If I creep into the throttle and watch the pump kick on at 17 psi, I can definitely feel the motor get saturated with Alky. I wonder if the same principle applies?
You guys are killing me.
If the alky is port injected, the atomization level of the spray no longer becomes a concern. Equal distribution is all but guaranteed.
If I were playing with this, I would develop a spider manifold with one throughwall fitting in the upper plenum hat. As the plenum hat is lowered into position with the mounted spider manifold, the nozzles position themselves at the top portion of the intake runner, 1/2 inch off the port entrance, pointing into the port with a slight downward angle. It is all housed in the upper plenum hat. No modifications needed to the lower manifold. This would make the installation a breeze.
If the alky is port injected, the atomization level of the spray no longer becomes a concern. Equal distribution is all but guaranteed.
If I were playing with this, I would develop a spider manifold with one throughwall fitting in the upper plenum hat. As the plenum hat is lowered into position with the mounted spider manifold, the nozzles position themselves at the top portion of the intake runner, 1/2 inch off the port entrance, pointing into the port with a slight downward angle. It is all housed in the upper plenum hat. No modifications needed to the lower manifold. This would make the installation a breeze.
You will never get 100% vaporization with the intake temps we run. You would have a better shot at it with a non intercooled application but keep in mind the boiling point of what your trying to boil, the temperature pre-injection, and the pressure in the manifold. The methanol is gaining water content the longer it sits around raising the boiling point, the pressure in the intake is raising the boiling point, and the intercooler is removing heat which is needed to get a higher vaporization %. From what ive seen on on my engines is that the minimum amount of methanol needed to get the charge air temp to within 10* of ambient is all thats needed. More just causes it to stay in liquid form and go to the back of the engine. The front gets lean and melts cylinders. Port injecting over a certain point is almost necessary if the hp is high enough. When you are making under 600hp you can have all kinds of things wrong with the alky injection and not hurt it. When you start going over that you have a lot of things working against you.
Very well put, bison.
