knock problem at WOT - can someone look at my powerlogger files?

[rwrows]

ok,

i'm fighting a knock problem at WOT. think it may be the plugs but what do i know? i'm trying to run 24 lbs with smc dual alky and 93. 3 of these files are me on the street in 2nd gear just trying to get a feel for what's going on. the one file was an 11.37 pass where i lowered the boost and had no knock and then it the knock came out of no where. also, i think the calibration on my wideband is off so i wouldn't go by that. Any info would be great. i'm going to the track tomorrow and i'm dying to get into the 10s. i know my car can do it i just don't know how to get it there. combo is 66BB, ported irons, 212 roller, t&d roller rockers, cottons front mount, ported intake, 3200 pat's L/U. 275/60 mickey DRs. 60 lbs motrons, stock TB, full thottle 4" maf pipe.

i have gone 123.xx with a 1.7 or 1.8 60'. my best 60ft was a 1.60 but that was with the lower boost and i only went 11.37. rear has ATR bar, UMI uppers/lowers, front sway is removed, 90/10 shocks up front. running stock T wheels. Thanks!

 

[rwrows]

files located here: knock problem at WOT - can someone look at my powerlogger files? - TurboBuicks.com

thanks!!

 

[TurboBuRick]

Looks lean. What wideband?

Add all the wot fuel you can with the chip. See how the numbers respond.

 

[rwrows]

Looks lean. What wideband?

Add all the wot fuel you can with the chip. See how the numbers respond.

LC-1, but I think I need to recalibrate it. On the Henry3 file I maxed out the injectors. i'm definately going to max out the wot fuel for my first few passes tomorrow and see what happens. i'm also wondering if it could be false knock

 

[Boost231]

that knock is not false at all. Looks lean very lean to me.

Either put some good gas in it or turn the boost down. I would add alot of WOT Fuel or add alky to see if the knock goes down.

DONT RUN THE CAR LIKE THAT ANY MORE

 

[jasjamz]

The stock 02 readings look just as bad as the wideband readings. Something is wrong for sure. You could do some testing to see of the added fuel will get the numbers where they should be but I doubt it. I would avoid making attempts at that 10 second pass.

 

[TurboBuRick]

The stock 02 readings look just as bad as the wideband readings. Something is wrong for sure. You could do some testing to see of the added fuel will get the numbers where they should be but I doubt it. I would avoid making attempts at that 10 second pass.

X2 it's obvious afr's are lean.

Sounds like a weak stream of fuel.

I would't be doing any racing until you figure out whats going on.

 

[rwrows]

i made some adjustments and it got a little better. i turned up the alky (SMC) and reduced the timing down to 17. still getting knock but only sometimes. i also reduced the boost down to 21 lbs and I still saw knock. i'm gonna start logging my fuel pressure. the pump is the only thing i didn't do. i was told the car has a walbro 340 but i've never confirmed it.

 

[jasjamz]

If I were you I would replace it so you know what you have. Its $100. Thats cheaper than headgasket replacement!
The alky is helping the numbers so if you were to max the fuel in the chip, set the timing to what a 93 octane only car runs and boost to say 17psi or so it may show you that the fuel system is not working properly.

Start with checking voltage at the pump. One time my hotwire started to rub through and short to a spot on the frame. Not enough to blow the 30 amp fuse but enough to only get 10 volts while the car was running.

 

[KL Mallender]

I suggest you "Hire" a respected ignition/fuel map tuner, he/she may be be close enough to "knock" some sense into you, your combination reeks of a cylinder pressure trace that peaks in the mid to high 3000 rpm range which you are probably running way too much timing to overcome the laziness of a big turbo on your "Low rpm build", a 212 or shorter cam creates all it's goods below 4000 rpm, your turbo (reguardless of exhaust housing) is not happy (in it's sweet spot) untill at least 4200 plus rpm and higher, aww crap.
Your knock is there because of too much ignition timing, and will continue to be there because ever time you actually "Load It"(Shift recovery) you are close to peak pressures but you've got too much timing in it for that rpm/load and it knocks, but is probably not enough timing for higher rpms after cylinder pressure drop(pk torque), amazing that this "simple" concept about internal combustion engines is still being ignored by the Buick crowd in general.
You "PULL" to peak torque(rpm wise) after that you are just flapping your feathers trying to keep up with losses, no getting around it.
Head flow divided by cubic inch dictates rpm capability, from that you can choose a "Proper" camshaft duration for specified range and adapt converter to let engine "Slip" into target rpm range, You guy's are selecting and assembling parts in assbackwards methods with repeated results and failures and never coming to grips as to "Why"?

Kevin.

 

[rwrows]

I suggest you "Hire" a respected ignition/fuel map tuner, he/she may be be close enough to "knock" some sense into you, your combination reeks of a cylinder pressure trace that peaks in the mid to high 3000 rpm range which you are probably running way too much timing to overcome the laziness of a big turbo on your "Low rpm build", a 212 or shorter cam creates all it's goods below 4000 rpm, your turbo (reguardless of exhaust housing) is not happy (in it's sweet spot) untill at least 4200 plus rpm and higher, aww crap.
Your knock is there because of too much ignition timing, and will continue to be there because ever time you actually "Load It"(Shift recovery) you are close to peak pressures but you've got too much timing in it for that rpm/load and it knocks, but is probably not enough timing for higher rpms after cylinder pressure drop(pk torque), amazing that this "simple" concept about internal combustion engines is still being ignored by the Buick crowd in general.
You "PULL" to peak torque(rpm wise) after that you are just flapping your feathers trying to keep up with losses, no getting around it.
Head flow divided by cubic inch dictates rpm capability, from that you can choose a "Proper" camshaft duration for specified range and adapt converter to let engine "Slip" into target rpm range, You guy's are selecting and assembling parts in assbackwards methods with repeated results and failures and never coming to grips as to "Why"?

Kevin.

Tell this to Jack Cotton. I called him and told him I wanted a 10.50 combo. So he sold me what he suggested. My plan was to build a car capable of 10s so that I could run low 11s all day long. Also, I've been in touch with Otto and he said my combo is good for anywhere from 490 to 600 rwhp. Paul Miller has worked on my car and he knows the combo is good. So has Jim Dunn. My turbo spools instantly. I'm not really sure what your talking about.

My car has made good power with 0 knock in the past. The knock issue has just started recently. I haven't done the pump yet so I decided to log fuel pressure and so far my pump is doing its job. I'm gonna change the plugs out this week. I could easily take the car to someone else to take care of it. But the truth is, I don't like to travel. With the help of these forums its pretty easy to figure stuff out.

what's your combo since you seem to know everything?

I am a plumber by trade, not a mechanic or race car driver. Then my hobby is real estate. My cars are toys to me. I don't spend that much time working on them.

 

[KL Mallender]

Well, I can tell you that I would not be spending a lot of time on a fuel curve untill I had the ignition timing down cold, the only way to do that is by EGT readings, unless of course you have in-cylinder pressure transducers installed and are able to understand them.
I don't know "It All", but certainly enough that ANY internal combustion engine will require different ignition timings when exposed to different "Loads", and by loads I dont single out "Boost" or atmospheric pressures, but what gear it is in changes things(lower gears allow more timing) as well does head flow/camshaft profile, I read it all the time here about so-and-so is running 30 psi boost with 20 degrees timing...ok,....20 degrees WHERE? if they are using a timing map locked at 20 degrees from 3500 up I'll be roasting hotdogs off their exhaust, lol
Better yet, show me someone trying to run a small cam(200-215 dur) with lots of timing to cover a oversized turbo lag with 20+ degrees timing at 30 psi as it shifts from 2nd to 3rd with a "tight" converter...*pop*, I'd go further but few will grasp the why's and what to do about it.
Enjoy your "combo plate", Jack and other vendors appreciate the revenue.


Kevin.

 

[rwrows]

Well, I can tell you that I would not be spending a lot of time on a fuel curve untill I had the ignition timing down cold, the only way to do that is by EGT readings, unless of course you have in-cylinder pressure transducers installed and are able to understand them.
I don't know "It All", but certainly enough that ANY internal combustion engine will require different ignition timings when exposed to different "Loads", and by loads I dont single out "Boost" or atmospheric pressures, but what gear it is in changes things(lower gears allow more timing) as well does head flow/camshaft profile, I read it all the time here about so-and-so is running 30 psi boost with 20 degrees timing...ok,....20 degrees WHERE? if they are using a timing map locked at 20 degrees from 3500 up I'll be roasting hotdogs off their exhaust, lol
Better yet, show me someone trying to run a small cam(200-215 dur) with lots of timing to cover a oversized turbo lag with 20+ degrees timing at 30 psi as it shifts from 2nd to 3rd with a "tight" converter...*pop*, I'd go further but few will grasp the why's and what to do about it.
Enjoy your "combo plate", Jack and other vendors appreciate the revenue.


Kevin.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Thanks for the advice on the EGT readings. That's one of my next moves. See? That's why we have this forum. Not sure why you are on a Buick forum bad-mouthing the Buick guys. And the comments about the combo plate from Jack and his revenue makes you sound like even more of a donkey.

These forums are to help each other out, not for guys to act hard about how smart they are. Like I said, I'm a plumber. That's why I'm here asking guys like you for help.

Definitely some of the stuff you're saying makes sense. I know the load is much harder in 3rd gear. But for me, I live in the city. It's hard for me to do WOT blasts in 3rd gear. I'd be going 100+ miles per hour. I still appreciate your advice though, even with all the negativity.

I believe my cam's power range goes up to 5800? Your saying it makes peak power under 4k? Enlighten me. I have tons to learn.

 

[87NAT]

How old is your alky pump? I have been fighting the same issues as you. My alky pump is 4 years old. I dont log alky pressure so I didnt look into that as an issue until I spoke to Julio aboit it. I have a new pump and pressure guage setup on the way. I have not installed it but I am 99% sure thats my knock problem. My logs look like yours.

 

[rwrows]

How old is your alky pump? I have been fighting the same issues as you. My alky pump is 4 years old. I dont log alky pressure so I didnt look into that as an issue until I spoke to Julio aboit it. I have a new pump and pressure guage setup on the way. I have not installed it but I am 99% sure thats my knock problem. My logs look like yours.

My alky pump is at least 3 years old. It's an SMC kit which has a much weaker pump than razor's kit. That's the other thing I might do is log the alky pressure. I'm glad to see someone has a similar log to me! When will you have your new pump in?

 

[87NAT]

Should be today. When I get to install it between the wife, kids and work is another story altogether.

My pump always lugged down the motor when I hit the test button at idle but I never realized that the older they get the more pressure they lose. I dont think it was keeping up enough at WOT. Julio was pretty surprised to hear I was still running a 4 year old pump. Everything else checks out on my car. New fuel pump, new fuel filter, alternator charging, coil/module test with Caspers tester, new plugs, wires tested okay, FP rising with boost. etc... All my PL files show all parameters are good. Like I said the only thing I was missing from the equation is the alky pressure. His new guage mounts in the pillar pod and has a recall button for highest pressure reading after a run. Trick stuff.

I will post results after I do the install.

 

[rwrows]

sweet. what were your 02s during the knock?

 

[87NAT]

I generally use my wideband and ignore the o2 sensor because it reads low even though my A/F is good. I want to say in the low to mid 700's.

 

[KL Mallender]

I don't know why I try sometimes either, but if I come off sounding like a horse's azz sometimes, well...so be it.
I spent 15+ years as a GM "Heavy Tech", half of which I was infected with Buick's Kick Azz with Class act, the Grand National, the best automotive education I could have ever recieved, it's not just the little engine that could, although it most certainly was.
Most "seasoned" technicians all started with simple repair stuff, simple stopped when the 3.8 Turbo hit you over the head and commanded your attention, more's better rule doesn't always find welcome under a Buick's hood.
If you listen to what "IT" asks for, she'll reward you, likewise if you keep shoving something down her throat, eventually she'll puke.
The majority of questions I read upon these sections are of the same problems under different wording, it gets old as well as I do.
If your looking for the "EASY" button for automotive performance, you have been wasting your time, Buick's are many things, but easy isn't one of them.
The Buick 3.8 was a great 200-250 horsepower engine N/A, multiplying by boost pressure keeping air temps in check, she's more than capable of being a "Reliable" 550-600 horse kicker for years to come, but you have to stop doing the same old s**t, enough.
These aren't super high rpm engines, but more than capable of 6000+ safe rpms,
but year after year people revert to treating it like a diesel and wonder why it crapped out again.
Remember: Headflow \ Cubic Inch = rpm "Range Available" reguardless of "Boost", you guy's are missing out on a whole lot of safe, useable power because of a major fetish with short duration/high lift camshafts, damm, gotta lose that anchor before you can really fly.
Good luck all.

Kevin.


oh, btw, those 15 years were from 1980-1995, then I thought I could I could do it better on my own, lol.

 

[rwrows]

update:

darn alky pump was leaking like hell. specifically the part on smc's pump that says 'made in china'. got sick of the smc junk and ordered a kit from razor brand new. that along with new plugs i think the car is gonna run like a raped ape as soon as this snow is gone.