My billet TA block on Methanol/E85 w/ 160lb injectors and a Gen2 'street' car build.

[marleyskater420]

I love the "Obey Grand National" pic. Great pics, keep 'em coming!

Hahah thanks man! That is actually in my office and it just was a coincidence that it ended up like that My office is covered in street art/graffiti/car parts/car posters/car stickers and giant speakers

Awesome build!!! Keep all your points fresh on this thread. I do the same, it always helps if you need to back track on anything that you did. Looks fantastic!!

Thanks man, really. I am trying to explain each of the parts I get so that I know what the hell I am doing/have done so that I can remember what I have done already.



Here are some pics from the How to Make Musclecar Handle book that shows info about shock dynos and how the Chassiswork's Varishock responds on the shock dyno. I know I originally bought some Viking double adjustable shocks for the rear, but after finding out about how they responded on the dyno, I returned them and bought these Varishocks. The cost was actually about the same (the Vikings I bought weren't the regular double adjustables, they were the more expensive "Crusader" line) so I just had to eat the shipping cost, but it was worth it to know that the shocks I am using are tried and true.


Shock dyno of the Varishock double adjustable QS2's:


Shock Dyno of the Varishock Single adjustable QS1's, notice the valving difference for the changes in compression and rebound:



WAY STOKED MARK SIGNED MY BOOK!!! ....sorry..had to nerd-out for a sec...



This is what a shock dyno looks like. I am a visual learner, so I figure some other people might be as well, so I included this pic to show those who are curious, what a shock dyno looks like. Hope this helps someone out there understand this stuff!

 

[marleyskater420]

So it has been quite some time since I have updated this thread, and I figured it might be time to take a few minutes to discuss some changes I've made, and talk about a few different topics that I see throughout the forum..

First off, this lovely beauty showed up this week, a Hellwig 1 5/16" tubular front swaybar from SC&C:








Right now I am waiting for my Varishocks, cylinder heads, fuel rails, intake spacer, and a few other things to arrive.

I just got word the other day that the TA blocks might be ready within a few weeks, which is awesome!

This means as soon as I get my fuel rails and intake spacer, I need to drop them off at the anodizing place!

Now onto a few topics that I have wanted to touch on in the past..

First, I want to talk about the importance of a good fuel filter and how it can affect pressures in your fuel system. For reference, here is a photo comparing a Kinsler Fuel Injection filter (their smallest one) with a nice and expensive Aeromotive filter:




Do you see how much larger the area is that the fuel is filtered through? The larger surface area=more fuel can flow through it, which translates to less of a potential restriction (since the fuel can move more freely and without restriction through a larger surface area compared to a smaller one).

Basic orifice theory, which this information can be had in the actual Kinsler Fuel Injection catalog, page 202 (I encourage everyone to download this catalog as there is more information about fuel flow/everything fuel related, than you could imagine!) states that

"If you want to flow more through an orifice, but keep the pressure the same, then you must use a larger orifice. The flow increases as the area of the orifice increases."

What does that mean for us? Well, it means that all of you who build these incredible $15+ motors but skimp out when it comes time for the fuel system and fuel filters are shooting yourself in the foot and potentially causing a restriction in your fuel lines. We know that as fuel pressure increases, fuel pump flow decreases. This is due to basic machining tolerances and other factors, but the point remains that the flow decreases as the pressure increases.

To further illustrate this point, here is a copy of my fuel pump's flow chart. This is a Weldon 2345A pump that I purchased from Kinsler Fuel Injection. Each pump comes flowed, tested, and with a flow sheet like this so you will know exactly what your pump can flow.



Do you see how at 40psi the fuel flow is about 290GPH, and at 80psi it is 260GPH? This is a drop of about 30gph.

Why should you give a shit about this? Because when you are under boost your fuel pressure increases in a typical 1:1 ratio with the boost pressure, which means your fuel pump is flowing less fuel under boost than at base pressure. If you have a base pressure of 45psi, and you run 25psi, that means your pump sees 70psi (assuming ZERO pressure restrictions). 45psi (base pressure) + 25psi (boost) = 70psi at the pump.

So on my flow sheet my pump at 45psi flows just over 280GPH. If I were to run 25psi of boost, that would put my pump at 70psi (assuming no restrictions), which if we look at my flow sheet my pump flows about 265GPH, which is a 15GPH drop in flow. This matters because when we determine our fuel flow requirements and look at what various fuel pumps flow we may only look at the 45psi flow number, and not the 70-80psi levels.

How does this fuel flow tie in with the fuel filters? Because as I just illustrated, as the fuel pressure increases the fuel flow decreases, so if we have a fuel filter that does not flow enough for what our fuel pump can flow, we may see a pressure increase and thus cause the fuel pump to be at a higher pressure than compared with a fuel filter that has no restrictions.

The main point I am trying to illustrate with all this jibber-jabber, is that when you plan your fuel system and look at what size lines/filter/pump you are going to go with, you want to make sure that your fuel pump can flow more than what your fuel requirements are at your base pressure plus boost pressure. A good rule of thumb is to take your base pressure, add your boost pressure, and add 10psi to that and see if the fuel pump can flow enough at that fuel pressure.


I WILL CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION IN MY NEXT POST. PLEASE LOOK AT THE NEXT POST FOR THE REST OF MY DISCUSSION. THANK YOU.

 

[Turbo Keith]

Good reading Man

 

[marleyskater420]

Good reading Man

Hey Keith!!

Wait until I finish typing up my suspension post.. heheh...

Btw, I am hoping the LCAs should be done sometime soon. I'm gonna give them about 2 more weeks to finish powdercoating my stuff and then if they don't have it done, I'll just send it to my buddy to have it finished.

Once they are finished, you will have yourself some nice stock LCAs with PST race bushings and Howe Tall ball joints along with the weld-in UMI brackets I have lying around.. hehe

 

[marleyskater420]

THIS IS CONTINUED FROM MY PREVIOUS POST, THIS POST WILL DISCUSS SUSPENSION PARTS AND THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT TYPE OF PARTS ACTUALLY FIX ISSSUES VS PARTS THAT ADVERTISE CERTAIN ADVANTAGES WITHOUT FUNDAMENTALLY ADDRESSING THE ISSUES INHERENT TO THE G-BODY PLATFORM.....ALSO I WILL TALK ABOUT WHY COILOVERS SUCK, AT LEAST IN THE FRONT, FOR DRAG RACING CARS USING STOCK-MOUNTING LOCATION G-BODY CARS.

This post will probably offend and upset some people, but I would rather get this information out there for people to make an educated decision than keep it to myself and people aimlessly purchase products for their car without truly knowing what they accomplish or address.

With that said let's begin with the basics of why we may want to buy new control arms for our cars...

1) Bump Steer- causes, effects, and how to correct it
A) Our cars use what is described as a SLA front suspension. This stands for Short Long Arm. This means that our lower control arms are longer than our upper control arms. Our suspension pivots along certain points called Pickup Points. A Pickup Point is the pivot axis of each bushing, center of the ball joint, and tie rod ends. All of these are PP's that the suspension travels along. This means that if you were to look at your suspension from the front, the suspension pivots on these PP's and the location of the PP's create certain arcs, or paths of travel, that the suspension will move along.
B) Bump steer is defined as "..an unwanted change in wheel direction or toe as the suspension travels."
C) As our suspension travels through its' arc the lower control arm pivot point and the tie rod pickup point swing in an arc as well (because they are Pickup Points of the suspension-they are the pivoting axis along which the suspension may travel). If the arcs of the two points-the LCA (lower control arm) PP and the tie rod PP are at different heights, they will have different arcs. This is illustrated in the following drawing from Jerry Bickel's book:


You can see how the tie rod PP and the LCA PP on the spindle have arcs that they swing along during travel. In the picture it shows the tie rod and LCA PP's are almost the same height, which allows them to have an almost parallel arc. The near-same height of the LCA and tie rod PP's allows for an almost zero-bump steer situation, because their arcs they swing along are almost parallel.
D) Bump Steer in our cars is caused because our tie rod and LCA PP's are not at the same height. To quote Bickel, "Any differences between the spindle and tie rod arcs will cause the tie rod to push or pull on the steering arm. This changes the direction of the wheel, creating bump steer." In a suspension with the LCA and tie rod PP's not equal heights, as the tie rod moves and pulls on the steering arm, it is causing either toe-in or toe-out (this is where the actual direction your wheel is pointing is changed) and thus the change in direction of the car. Here is another drawing from Bickel's book discussing this:



E) How do we fix this bump steer, now that we know what can cause it?
a) To fix this issue we need to find control arms that help to relocate the LCA PP to a more level position as the tie rod PP sits. A good example of this would the SPC LCAs with taller ball joints that are offered from SC&C. This design does not simply add a taller ball joint and calls it a day, but it physically locates the ball joint to a more favorable position for suspension travel-locating it to a more level height as the tie rod sits when you use the taller ball joints offered with the arms, improving the arc the PP swings along relative to the tie rod. This LCA also addresses caster and camber issues as well, but I won't touch on that right now.. Once we have a lower suspension that has the tie rod PP and the LCA PP to a more level height, we can significantly reduce and almost completely rid ourselves of any bump steer the car may have. Note: simply adding a taller ball joint to the LCA will not fix this issue. The actual physical position of the ball joint must be changed as well. This is what separates suspension pieces like the SPC lower control arms from the rest of today's offerings- they physically change the location of the ball joint AND use the taller ball joint to locate the LCA pick up point and tie rod pick up point to a more level location. BEWARE of other companies products offering taller ball joints- you must make sure that they are changing the ball joint location as well, which is the real key here.


In my next post, when I get some time, I will go into the coilover vs shock and spring comparison...

 

[marleyskater420]

**This is going to be a multiple-post write up due to the amount of information and length of the posts with imagines/etc**

So this post is a big ramble of me doing my best to share the suspension knowledge I have learned from spending countless hours reading books, annoying people with my questions, and many phone calls to shops trying to learn about this stuff as much as possible. My hope is that I can try to condense some of the information from the various books and articles I have, and make translate it as best possible into terminology that someone completely new to suspension can understand. I am not writing all this for any personal benefit (other than wasting time at work-kidding) but as a general token of appreciation for all the Buick community has given me in knowledge, and this is me trying to give back. I think anyone that has spent some time on the phone with me talking about suspension knows that I am genuinely trying to share what I have learned, and am not trying to make it seem like I know everything or have all this experience and you should listen to every word I say. I am genuinely trying to share what I have learned because I love talking about cars and helping others, and perhaps not everyone can afford these books or has time to read them, so maybe this might help condense about 500+ pages of reading into a few long posts. So please read this with those intentions in mind. I want to give back to this community, and this is how I am trying to do that.

I want to make it very clear, I have YET to try all of these things on my personal car. Once the TA block arrives and is built, I will be trying to apply all this knowledge I have learned.

This knowledge does come from very reputable people, but I felt like sharing this stuff because I figure if you/we can at least understand how all these things work together, what can affect the suspension, how the suspension really works, hopefully you/we can save money by not buying parts that don't address the real issues, and it can hopefully give us an idea of where to start addressing issues once we begin to tune our suspensions. The other hope is that those out there that have tried these different approaches may hopefully post their experiences and results so that we can try to create a sorta "G-body Drag Racing Suspension Reference Thread" of sorts. I am writing all this in hopes that others contribute and lend their real world experience (and trust me, I will too once my engine is built ) so we can all get an idea of places to start.

Before I start to ramble on all this, I want to say that this knowledge comes from the following links and books:

*Mark Savitske's "How to Make Your Muscle Car Handle" - Mark is the owner of SC&C (Savitske Classic and Custom) and his website for his company is www.scandc.com (if I am not allowed to post websites to places other than supporting vendors, Mods-please do not delete my post and just delete the links, if that isn't too much to ask for?)

*Dave Morgan's "Door Slammers: The Chassis Book"

*Jerry Bickel's "Complete Guide to.. Chassis Performance"

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/...e-to-tuning-your-four-link-suspension-system/

http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/info/Launching_A_Drag_Car.htm

http://www.racingjunk.com/news/2014/05/09/drag-race-suspension-tuning/

https://www.cachassisworks.com/Attachments/Instructions/899-031-214.pdf

http://www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/tuning-4-link.html

http://www.rapid-racer.com/suspension-tuning.php

http://www.racingjunk.com/forums/showthread.php?17130-4-Link-Basics-Theory-amp-Help-Instructions

______________________________________________________________________________________

So, first I figure we should establish a lot of the different definitions of suspension terminology, these are taken from Mark Savitske's How to Make Your Muscle Car Handle, unless otherwise noted:

* Pickup Points (PP): "Pickup points are the pivoting points of the suspension. The pivot axis of each bushing, the center of the pivot ball in each ball joint, and the tie rod ends are all pickup points. Invisible lines connecting these points dictate the geometry of the suspension." - Savitske

* Camber: vertical angle of a tire in relation to the ground. Zero degress means perpendicular to the ground, or straight up and down. One degree of positive camber means the top of the tire is leaning outward by 1 degree from vertical. One degree of negative camber means the top of the tire is leaning inward toward the centerline of the car by one degree....there are 2 types of camber; Dynamic and Static. Dynamic camber changes when the suspension moves as a result of the suspension geometry and vehicle movement. Static refers to the settings when you align the front end.

*Caster: The tilt of the spindle, more correctly called the steering knuckle or upright, (relative) toward the front or rear of the car in relation to the ground is its caster angle.

* Roll Center: There is a certain amount of lean (or roll) caused by centrifugal force. Think of the leaning car as an upside-down pendulum. The roll center is the pivot point of that pendulum.

*Center of Gravity (CG) : This is the top-to-bottom, side-to-side, and front-to-back balance point of the car.

*Spring Rate: Is a measure of stiffness and is generally expressed in the number of pounds it takes to compress a given spring 1 inch.

*Instant Center (IC) : If you draw an imaginary line though the pickup points of two suspension arms, the instant center is the point where those lines converge.... The front suspension on either side has an IC for either side, and the rear suspension has an IC as well (drawing the imaginary line through the top and bottom control arms and finding where they intersect).
Page from one of the links showing the rear Instant Center:

*Anti-squat line/ Neutral Line: The Anti-Squat line (AS) or also known as the Neutral Line (NL) or "0% Rise Line" is the imaginary line on the car that if the Instant Center falls on this line, your car will not rise or squat, it will simply more forward and use all of the energy in the car to move the car forward, which means you do not lose any energy through the rear of the car either rising or squatting (because any movement other than going forward is considered a "waste"). To find the AS line, you draw a line from the center of the rear tire contact patch forward through a line drawn straight up from the car's front tire contact patch, and a line extending forward from the car's center of gravity. The line from the center of gravity and the car's front center contact patch will have an intersection point. This point is where you draw the line from the rear tire contact patch to. The line that you draw is the AS line. This is what you want to aim for getting your IC as close as possible to in order to obtain the best launch possible. Here is a drawing showing the Neutral line and the effects of having your IC above or below it:



*Bump Steer: When the front spindles and tires turn in or out as the suspension moves up and down.

*Rear end wrap-up: As the pinon gear is rotated by the driveshaft, the pinion tries to "climb" the ring gear. This causes the rear end to rotate upwards, or "wrap up".

*Tractive force: the measurement of the forward force at the point of tire contact with the pavement. Tractive force can be calculated by the following equation: Tractive force = Vehicle weight (lbs) X acceleration (g's)

*Newton's Third Law (as it applies to drag racing) : As the crankshaft is turned an equal amount of torque is applied in the opposite direction to the engine block. Engine mounts transfer engine torque into the chassis, which will try to roll rotate counter clockwise.

*Intertial Torque Forces: Source of torque delivered to the chassis comes from intertial forces of spinning powertrain components. In automatic transmission cars this is the torque converter. Engine and Intertial torque cause the chassis to roll in the same counter-clockwise direction.

*Steering Axis Inclination (SAI) : A line extended through the ball joints down to the racing surface. The SAI angle is the axis about which the wheels turn when steering the car. Ideally, this line should intersect with the middle of the tire tread and should be exactly the same on both sides of the car. This reduces tire travel (scrub radius) and improves directional stability. (To find this on SLA cars you would draw a line through the upper and lower ball joints down to the ground. If this line/angle lands on the center of the contact patch of the tire tread, then you have a perfect SAI)


So now that I have defined most of the suspension definitions that I think are important, I'd like to start with the topic of front suspension springs and shocks vs. coilovers and how that can affect your car. I would have started originally with Bumpsteer, but I already addressed that in a previous post.

So, my next post will be about springs and shocks vs. coilovers for our cars...

 

[GNBRETT]

wow kool thread

 

[Turbo Keith]

wow kool thread

Yea , Very good thread . Tyler is a cool dude

 

[marleyskater420]

Yea , Very good thread . Tyler is a weird dude

fixed that for ya

 

[marleyskater420]

So My cylinder heads, fuel rails, intake spacer, and roller rockers arrived

 

[~JM~]

Very nice!

I was wondering if you'd mind talking about the "skater" part of your handle?

 

[Turbo Keith]

Very Very nice parts there " Skater "

 

[marleyskater420]

Very nice!

I was wondering if you'd mind talking about the "skater" part of your handle?

Yea sure man. I was 17 when I had my first GN and joined this forum...hence the 420 in my name... and no, I dont smoke anymore..

I used to ride Crux trucks and typically Consolidated or Expedition One decks, although I had a few Zero Jamie Thomas decks that I loved. I dug the Ex One decks cause they were really close with OBEY (the graffiti artist) and I rocked a ton of OBEY gear back in the day before he got huge. I think you can see in one of my pics an OBEY poster I have in my office now.

Got outta skating in college though.

Very Very nice parts there " Skater "

Thanks man! Trying to make myself one bad lil V6

 

[~JM~]

I rode during the Z-Boys era.

Not familiar with the equipment names that you mentioned.

I keep a look out for classic looking longboards these days.

 

[marleyskater420]

I rode during the Z-Boys era.

Not familiar with the equipment names that you mentioned.

I keep a look out for classic looking longboards these days.

oh werd? Nice!

Yea the companies I rode were typically smaller and less known. I kinda always dug the smaller/indie brands...kinda follows suit that I'd be into GN's when your average kid was into mustangs and camaros.. hehe..

You live in Socal?

 

[marleyskater420]

To the dudes/dudettes who read this thread.... can you believe it just reached 24,000 ...THOUSAND views?!?

Seriously... that is ridiculous!!

Are there just a ton of people who read this thread and don't post?

Seriously, 24,000 ....is my build that interesting? Or is it more you're waiting to see if I crash and burn this thing?

Damn man... I seriously hope you guys are enjoying yourselves though...whoever you are... cause I know I am

 

[~JM~]

Been a long cold winter!

You buy nice parts & post pictures.

Haven't lived in California for a while now.

 

[marleyskater420]

Been a long cold winter!

You buy nice parts & post pictures.

Haven't lived in California for a while now.

Yea its been a cold winter here. It was about 75 outside and I had to wear sandals to work...ugh its rough rough living out here ....

I dunno if I buy nice parts...I'd say I buy parts that I have hopes will work well? I try to post pics of the parts for people to see and try and explain why I chose that particular piece over others...

I'm really shocked and at the same time flattered that so many people want to look at what the heck I am doing. I wish more people who read the thread posted in it so I could get some feedback, or if they wanted to post pics of something in particular...

 

[BEATAV8]

Will the "authoritays" hassle you in so-cal for driving a modified car? I don't know much about it.....
I'm visiting Vegas this week and heard an advertisement on the local radio telling people to report any vehicles they see emitting smoke.... has to suck for the coal-rolling crowd.

 

[marleyskater420]

Will the "authoritays" hassle you in so-cal for driving a modified car? I don't know much about it.....
I'm visiting Vegas this week and heard an advertisement on the local radio telling people to report any vehicles they see emitting smoke.... has to suck for the coal-rolling crowd.

First off, I'm in Norcal....not down south with the heathens like Dank GN and Reggie West...

And let's be real, I'm a white dude in the Bay driving a nice car, cops won't really mess with me....now, my black friends on the otherhand do have to worry a bit more... white people suck, if I'm honest....

I actually got out of getting my car towed when I was younger cause a cop liked my car. They're pretty cool to American muscle.

I've actually shown local cops pics of my build and they're always stoked to see it. We always joke that they can't arrest me now since they know me.....weirdly enough one of them did almost arrest my ass a few years ago...sitting in cuffs in a cop car totally blows...


not as much as going to county in nothing but your boxers-and not the type with buttons for your fly, the "hang loose" type, but that is a story for another time...