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There's no reason why a set of heads like that with the right combo shouldn't do a whole lot better than high 8s. You'll need big cubes and big rpm to get the intake velocity where it needs to be to make them really work. These are not for your average street racer.

Heck, I'm doing low 9s with an intake port that flows 216 @ .500 on 22 psi boost with a maxed out old T76. There is a tremendous amount of potential with those heads you have there. I would think 7s would be easy.
 
Reality check:

Chevy's L92 heads flow 330 out of the box and cost less than $800 a pair fully assembled. Ouch!!!

strike
 
Who said they couldnt be? They need to be turned high to take advantage of those heads. The really high hp ones hit 8500-9000 rpm. Typically you dont see hydraulic cammed engines over 6500 rpm though, and over 99% of TR's are hydraulically cammed.
Higher than that...my uncle, who I mentioned, was spinning 9600 through the traps. I always thought that the dual dominator carbs were SERIOUS overkill for an engine making 600hp. They tried 3 dominators cut in half to get tri-power more or less, but it didnt work for some reason. This car was the one that really put ken duttweiler on the map, and was pretty much the test bed for buick and the TR aftermarket. The aftermarket GN heads were pretty much developed on my uncles car. That thing was basically a pro-stock engine with half the cubes...same efficiency as the pro-stockers as well. Im not sure what those heads flowed...whatever the race GN heads flow plus maybe a little porting...if porting is allowed in SSCX (super stock).
 
First stock style head car in the 7s
Were only a 1/2 seconds away.With flow numbers like that it should be a breeze:rolleyes:
 
First stock style head car in the 7s
Were only a 1/2 seconds away.With flow numbers like that it should be a breeze:rolleyes:

I thought JD did this back in the mid 90's with some old M&A's that had a ton of work done to them at 2500 lbs.
 
I thought JD did this back in the mid 90's with some old M&A's that had a ton of work done to them at 2500 lbs.


YOU ARE CORRECT, good memory.
Ruggles did those heads, they were SICK! I saw one off the engine and to even remotely consider them "stock style" on the inside would be a joke:biggrin: ! They were SERIOUS. Ruggles told me the flow numbers on those heads exceeded those of a ported stage 2 head. Tes Wayman had a set of those too.
 
YOU ARE CORRECT, good memory.
Ruggles did those heads, they were SICK! I saw one off the engine and to even remotely consider them "stock style" on the inside would be a joke:biggrin: ! They were SERIOUS. Ruggles told me the flow numbers on those heads exceeded those of a ported stage 2 head. Tes Wayman had a set of those too.

Oh I almost forgot about those heads. My source claimed that they were special castings that Ruggles himself did the core work on. I guess he got to play in M&A's sandbox, so to speak.;)
I have a local machinist that will build billet 3 valve heads if I want to pay him the $5,000+ he needs to whittle them out of a chunk of billet. He made the first 3 valve head for Top Fuel, (or any engine for that matter) now outlawed. Anyone with stupid money in thier pockets can have them made for the Buick. If you are serious, and have $5,000+ to goof around with, drop me a PM and I'll get you in touch with him.
Some of you forget to factor in the low rpm power you can make with 300 cfm heads. On a turbo engine high flow numbers make a BIG deal. If your existing heads flow 260 cfm, then bolting on a set of 300 cfm heads should make more power at lower boost levels. Think of boost pressure as a measurement of resistance. If you hooked the stock turbo up the the Sears tower, it wouldn't make ANY boost. Hook it up to a Briggs, and it'll make a TON of boost. If the heads flow well, then it'll require less pressure to feed the animal. Stop thinking in NA mode for rpm requirement to get hi flowing heads to make power. It is exactly opposite. Under boost that is. You will make alot more power down low with high flowing heads, beacause when you factor in the lbs. of air that can flow through the better port, the more power you will make. Then factor in that a low velocity head at low RPM will still function fine, because we have port fuel injection and don't have the fuel droplet issues. Yes a higher velocity helps in many ways, but it doesn't have nearly the same impact on our application as it does on a carb'd engine.
What bore diameter were the combustion chambers developed to work with. THAT makes a BIG difference!!!! IF they were developed to work with a 4.00" bore than they will have "issues" with a 3.830" bore. What is the price of these apperentlty great heads? They should work great on a StageII with out the need for alot of fabrication that the StageII heads require. I can make enough power from ported iron heads to break a 109 block, so I don't think that there is a practical use for the 300 cfm heads. So, when is someone going to cast us a good IRON block again so we can use 300 cfm of airflow?:D
 
Oh I almost forgot about those heads. My source claimed that they were special castings that Ruggles himself did the core work on. I guess he got to play in M&A's sandbox, so to speak.;)
I have a local machinist that will build billet 3 valve heads if I want to pay him the $5,000+ he needs to whittle them out of a chunk of billet. He made the first 3 valve head for Top Fuel, (or any engine for that matter) now outlawed. Anyone with stupid money in thier pockets can have them made for the Buick. If you are serious, and have $5,000+ to goof around with, drop me a PM and I'll get you in touch with him.
Some of you forget to factor in the low rpm power you can make with 300 cfm heads. On a turbo engine high flow numbers make a BIG deal. If your existing heads flow 260 cfm, then bolting on a set of 300 cfm heads should make more power at lower boost levels. Think of boost pressure as a measurement of resistance. If you hooked the stock turbo up the the Sears tower, it wouldn't make ANY boost. Hook it up to a Briggs, and it'll make a TON of boost. If the heads flow well, then it'll require less pressure to feed the animal. Stop thinking in NA mode for rpm requirement to get hi flowing heads to make power. It is exactly opposite. Under boost that is. You will make alot more power down low with high flowing heads, beacause when you factor in the lbs. of air that can flow through the better port, the more power you will make. Then factor in that a low velocity head at low RPM will still function fine, because we have port fuel injection and don't have the fuel droplet issues. Yes a higher velocity helps in many ways, but it doesn't have nearly the same impact on our application as it does on a carb'd engine.
What bore diameter were the combustion chambers developed to work with. THAT makes a BIG difference!!!! IF they were developed to work with a 4.00" bore than they will have "issues" with a 3.830" bore. What is the price of these apperentlty great heads? They should work great on a StageII with out the need for alot of fabrication that the StageII heads require. I can make enough power from ported iron heads to break a 109 block, so I don't think that there is a practical use for the 300 cfm heads. So, when is someone going to cast us a good IRON block again so we can use 300 cfm of airflow?:D

For 5K,Im in for next season!
 
Yes a higher velocity helps in many ways, but it doesn't have nearly the same impact on our application as it does on a carb'd engine.
I'm thinking more of the max velocity limit of the intake port in relation to HP potential. At a certain point, the gas velocity through an intake port will make it harder to get any addition flow from it. Even with turbocharging you will eventually hit a wall with very high port velocities. The higher cfm rating will fit more perfectly to a large cube engine with a high rev limit, putting intake charge velocity in a more sweet spot where the turbo is not having to work so hard to cram the charge past the port. That scenario will always equal more HP.

As a side point, I firmly believe that ram tuning occurs with a turbocharged engine just as it does with a N/A engine. Look at any high dollar turbocharged engine program and you will always see tuned intake and exhaust runners. They don't just do that for looks.
 
Yup, ram tuning works on all engines. Unfortunately, our runners are so short that the effective 2nd and 3rd order pulses are way out of range in terms of rpm. Cross sectional diameter determines the rpm range when velocity reaches its peak, which mostly determines peak torque rpm. The runner length determines the rpm range where the reversion wave heads back toward the valve the next time it opens, creating a sort of passive supercharging. If you know the air pressure diff., temperature and the area of the cross section, you can find out the velocity and use it to determine the runner length that will provide resonant tuning in the rpm range you want. I developed an intake for cobras that beat the best in the business. 60rwhp gain at redline with only a 3lb ft loss down low...both of which were unheard of on these N/A 4 valve 4.6's. My car was the test bed, and it took many many tries before I got there. Took alot of reading fluid dynamics books for dummies as well. 20 years of porting didnt hurt. When things got bad at work, my intake business kept me alive. People all over the country were sending me their intakes. I ended up having to quit, and basically gave all my tricks away. Now there are people all over doing their own work, making serious gains, and taking all the credit. I was about to get a full on feature on my intakes in 5.0 magazine, and then I had to call it quits because I used to do all the work, at my work, and there was a new ownership, with new policies and a whole different mentality which threw fringe benefits out the window. I was living in a little condo at the time, so I had nowhere to do the volume of work I would see had the feature happened.
Anyway, the air pressure will alter the speed of the resonant "bouncing", which will alter the pulse order which is the most effective. A 12 inch runner would peak hp at 6000, and torque peaked at 5000, which was dead on with where the math said it should be. After adding a blower with 11psi, it was now peaking hp at 6800. My 10 inch runner intake (with a few plenum tricks), peaked at 6000 like before, but held that peak solid to 7000, where the curve had usually dropped like a rock. Those engines are very peaky, so this was a very much needed boost in the powerband. If there are some FI long runner intakes out there that would bolt up to these TR's, I think the midrange torque could be improved by over 100lb. ft. Easily. A 7 inch runner intake I had made, lost 100lbs at 4000. At peak, the power was up 8hp, but it was a good lesson in the effects runner length has. And this was 100lbs, on a 320hp N/A motor. Extremely significant. The engine was an absolute DOG. The TR engines, given their low rpm peaks, would probably benefit greatly from a 12-14 inch runner (not including the runner in the head), with no loss up high..assuming its not a highly modified, high rpm motor.
 
VADER


speaking of intake runner lengths. have you ever looked at the early FWD 3.0-3.8 L intakes that have the TB turned at a angle.


Those intakes look to have more volume and the runners are a tab bit longer due to the upper plenum is somewhat smaller. but the dog house so to speak extends a little bit beyond the rear intake runners making it perfect for boost without the ram effect that occurs on the stock TR intake and dog house. The runners look to have a taller ceiling in them for more direct ram effect to the bas of the valve.
 
Yup, ram tuning works on all engines. Unfortunately, our runners are so short that the effective 2nd and 3rd order pulses are way out of range in terms of rpm. Cross sectional diameter determines the rpm range when velocity reaches its peak, which mostly determines peak torque rpm. The runner length determines the rpm range where the reversion wave heads back toward the valve the next time it opens, creating a sort of passive supercharging. If you know the air pressure diff., temperature and the area of the cross section, you can find out the velocity and use it to determine the runner length that will provide resonant tuning in the rpm range you want. I developed an intake for cobras that beat the best in the business. 60rwhp gain at redline with only a 3lb ft loss down low...both of which were unheard of on these N/A 4 valve 4.6's. My car was the test bed, and it took many many tries before I got there. Took alot of reading fluid dynamics books for dummies as well. 20 years of porting didnt hurt. When things got bad at work, my intake business kept me alive. People all over the country were sending me their intakes. I ended up having to quit, and basically gave all my tricks away. Now there are people all over doing their own work, making serious gains, and taking all the credit. I was about to get a full on feature on my intakes in 5.0 magazine, and then I had to call it quits because I used to do all the work, at my work, and there was a new ownership, with new policies and a whole different mentality which threw fringe benefits out the window. I was living in a little condo at the time, so I had nowhere to do the volume of work I would see had the feature happened.
Anyway, the air pressure will alter the speed of the resonant "bouncing", which will alter the pulse order which is the most effective. A 12 inch runner would peak hp at 6000, and torque peaked at 5000, which was dead on with where the math said it should be. After adding a blower with 11psi, it was now peaking hp at 6800. My 10 inch runner intake (with a few plenum tricks), peaked at 6000 like before, but held that peak solid to 7000, where the curve had usually dropped like a rock. Those engines are very peaky, so this was a very much needed boost in the powerband. If there are some FI long runner intakes out there that would bolt up to these TR's, I think the midrange torque could be improved by over 100lb. ft. Easily. A 7 inch runner intake I had made, lost 100lbs at 4000. At peak, the power was up 8hp, but it was a good lesson in the effects runner length has. And this was 100lbs, on a 320hp N/A motor. Extremely significant. The engine was an absolute DOG. The TR engines, given their low rpm peaks, would probably benefit greatly from a 12-14 inch runner (not including the runner in the head), with no loss up high..assuming its not a highly modified, high rpm motor.

Kinda like this one I just finished (cept for final fitment) for a 5.4 Ford 4 Valve? Now I'll have to start one for the Buick. I have read alot about intake manifold design and alot of it is contradictory. Duttweiler claimes that runner length is not critical on a boosted application. I have always disputed that. (in my head, that is) I feel that plenum volume is MORE critical than runner length for a turbocharged engine. My research has me thinking that a plenum volume needs to be 2.75 timed the displacement of the engine. That's why I built my plenum box the size I did. Our 3.8's need 2.75 gallons of plenum volume. (in theory) They come from the factory with nothing near that. I haven't measured it, but might have to now just for grins. Building a manifold with 12-14" runners is kinda challenging with hood space being like it is. I will tinker with the idea, thoug and see what I come up with. So, a three gallon plenum and 13" runners............I'm on it..... soon.
 

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Let me just throw some things out there to think about.

Generally, increasing intake runner length to increase numbers at peak torque will hurt top end HP numbers. Especially, if the intake runner is on the small side for the intended peak hp target.

Correct intake runner taper is very important to maximize the tuned length.

If your configuration is such that the chance of detonation at peak torque is on the edge, you don't need tuned runners adding to your cylinder pressures at peak torque.

If you're tune is such that the turbo has a hard time spooling until after peak torque (engine size, camming, turbo size, high rpm target), it might be helpful to tune your manifolding for just before or right at peak torque. The increase in exhaust energy from the increase of VE around peak torque will help the turbo to spool a little quicker. Just remember, it most likely will hurt you a little after peak torque, depending on other factors in your combination.

As you get into the very high HP arena (over 1,000 HP), an important stradegy is to avoid too high of a cylinder pressure at midrange rpm, inorder to avoid detonation. The camming, torque converter stall speed, rev limit, max boost level and ramping rate are set to target high HP only. Boost usually ramping up all the way to around 2,000 rpm, or less, before redline to avoiding full boost level in the midrange, this way staying clear of detonation. In a situation such as this it is easy to see that intake runner tuning becomes unimportant. In fact, the intake runner tuning should target peak HP, not peak torque.
 
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