Powermaster support thread!

[Alky V6]

OK, I'll concede, It's obvious you've got to have the last word on this and you're convinced that everybody running the PM is compromising everybody else's safety.

Not true. But hey, to each his own. You win, I'm done.

I understand how hard it is for you to understand. Some people have to learn from experience. I'm one of those people too. I would never have considered replacing my PM unit before it actually failed. I felt like you. Run it until it needs to be replaced. When I learned my lesson, it was with my wife driving the car and I was very, very lucky. It could have been much worse. The PM on my WE4 that Chad drives first started acting up at the track. Again, I was very, very lucky. There are plenty of cases where people were not so lucky.

I'm just trying to convey the possibilities here. If people are willing to take the risk, I can't change that. At least, I can sleep well knowing that I tried my best to educate everyone on the issue. And Dave, for you to try to excuse yourself as me just trying to get the last word in is completely unfair and is a complete disservice to a very important issue.

Unfortunately, safety is one of the hardest things to sell a person. I hope you all learn without getting hurt.

 

[Ross L]

my acc. ball and switch was both replaced when I first bought the car about 8 or 9 years ago. Yes I experienced the "hard brake" but the car still stopped. It did'nt endanger anyones life and didn't make me affraid for my life if I were to ever drive the car with the PM again. I just replaced the parts and now 9 years later it needs some attention. I'll admit I never changed the entire system fluid. I only removed what was in the resevior and replaced with fresh fluid. Anyone know is the ZOne still carries the replacement PM with the lifetime warrenty? Thanks for all the opinions
Ross

 

[Not Avg 6]

Will someone explain proper maintenance procedures for the PM?

THX

 

[A2000RICH]

Will someone explain proper maintenance procedures for the PM?

THX

proper maintenance is really simple-------change the fluid at least once a year and fix anything that indicates a problem as SOON as it appears so it doesn't get worse-----its 99.99999% sure you will have no serious problems and it will be at least as reliable as any other brake system-------the biggest problem with these systems is that VERY FEW folks really understand them-----the suggestion of pumping the system down after parking the car is not really a good suggestion and will not do a thing to improve the life of the system----it does nothing to address any of the failure modes------really understanding the PM and how it works is a valuable thing to know if you want to eliminate problems ------I notice several mention that their PM motor runs each time the pedal is applied------thats a for-sure sign you have a problem brewing and not dealing with it will lead to expensive repairs----- --one of the things every PM owner should do is to learn the most common failure mode of the PM and how to deal with it-------by that i mean the loss of assist where the pedal gets "hard"-------contrary to what many believe you don't lose the ability to stop-------you just lose the power assist and the pedal effort required to stop really goes up -------stand on the brake with both feet and you CAN stop -------the stories of "losing all brakes" are really myths-------what happens is that drivers "panic" when this happens and they fail to realize that the system can still stop the car -------the system is like all systems made in the last several decades and has dual fluid reservoirs------losing all braking instantly is just about impossible--------any GN owner should take their car to a empty parking lot or a lightly travelled country road and unplug the PM switch plug-------drive the car and experience what happens after a few stops and get a feel for what it takes to deal with the loss of power assist ------in the next few days i am going to take the time to explain some of the things that are important to know about the PM and keeping it working-------this system was a forerunner of many of the more complex systems that are common on newer cars ie the "hydraulic assist"-------being an early design it did have some flaws but "newer thinking" can virtually eliminate them-------the worst weakness of the PM was the original "black" switch which was a cheap part manufactured in the appliance division of General Electric-------it had a design flaw that virtually guaranteed failure after a relatively low number of cycles------that flaw was fixed in the grey switch and should have been replaced free from GM on the 87-C-13 recall------second problem was GM didn't recommend or make part of the suggested service the process of changing the fluid yearly like a lot of newer cars now suggest-------unfortunately these are low cost hydraulic systems (compared to industrial hydraulic systems) and they are not sealed-------there are 6 reasons why the fluid needs to be changed regularly in these units-------they are in no particular order: direct chemical attack, galvanic corrosion, crevice corrosion, pitting corrosion, inter-granular corrosion, and erosion corrosion-----i will explain each of these in detail over the next few days-------the combination of these factors almost guarantee that your unit will give poor service if you don't keep the fluid clean-------new brake fluid is clear------if your fluid is dark it needs to be changed-------at the factory the system is evacuated with a vacuum and fluid is then added-----this insures that there is no unwanted air anywhere in the system--------i realize most don't have available a power bleeder to exchange the fluid but a good easy low cost alternative is to simply get a "turkey baster" from someplace that sells cooking supplies--------each time you change your engine oil simply pump the pedal slowly ten times with the ignition switch off and use the turkey baster to remove the fluid from all three sections of the reservior and replace it with fresh fluid-----while this doesn't get all the fluid in the system it will replace most of it and doing this several times a year will ensure that your fluid will eventually get clean and stay that way--------I have personally repaired hundreds of these units and am one of the guys that believe them to be excellent performing units when they are taken care of-------they are quick responding compared to the vacuum and hydro units and I firmly believe that it just makes sense to keep them in our cars..............RC

 

[Not Avg 6]

Thanks again Richard, will be going to get one of those "turkey basters."

 

[blackazz]

well i just wanted to put my to cents in on the pm i loved mine till on day she took a dump on me went with vac belive me if I had 500.00 plus for a rebuilt id be rollin a pm in my Gn.

 

[WLDWST]

You guys are funny. You will stand by that peice of crap Powermaster till it does you in. My point is that it is an electrcal system. You are relying on a fuse and some electrical parts to stop a near two ton car at speed. I never said I didn't like the way the Powermaster works, I just think my life and whomevers life I didn't take with me is worth more. Yes you can still stop the car with a dead pedal. It may take you through an intersection with a kid in your grill, but you will stop eventually. I bet more of you will have turfed your Powermasters by this time next year. It's inevitable.

 

[blackazz]

well thats the good thing about livin in the usa were all intitled to our own opinion still love that junk.

 

[RobS]

I read the stories of PM failing and wonder why nobody investagated why the red brake light didn't light. If the wiring diagram on the turbo regal website is correct, the 30 amp fuse does not power the brake light. The pressure switch is suppose to ground, causing the brake light to come on. Were these no notice failures because of the recalled pressure switch? I am glad these disscussions have taken place. They have educated myself on properly maintaining the PM. When I am changing my fluid in the spring, I will check the proper operation of the pressure switch when the system has low pressure and no 30 amp fuse.

 

[A2000RICH]

I read the stories of PM failing and wonder why nobody investagated why the red brake light didn't light. If the wiring diagram on the turbo regal website is correct, the 30 amp fuse does not power the brake light. The pressure switch is suppose to ground, causing the brake light to come on. Were these no notice failures because of the recalled pressure switch? I am glad these disscussions have taken place. They have educated myself on properly maintaining the PM. When I am changing my fluid in the spring, I will check the proper operation of the pressure switch when the system has low pressure and no 30 amp fuse.

nothing to investigate-----truth be known it probably did come on-------they didn't see it or they panicked like i said--------thats why everyone should do a dry run to see what the symptoms are------one stop before the pedal gets really hard it gets "semi hard" for a couple tries------if you are practiced you know to keep on the pedal and not do multiple tries because that causes loss of even more assist----------i can't emphasize the importance of a trial run to get experience with the PM--------airplanes are safe but pilots always practice likely failure modes and it saves lives--------as for checking the brake light its simple--------there are two plugs on the PM--------the three prong on the switch and a 4 prong on the motor-------turn the ingition on and open the hood--------if the PM motor runs wait till it stops and then unplug the 4 contact plug from the motor----------get back in the car and press the pedal several times with ignition still on----------the light should come on after a few pumps and BEFORE the pedal gets hard--------dont forget to plug the motor plug back in !!!!!..............RC

 

[Alky V6]

I find this amazing. What other braking system in recent history requires you to prepare yourself for inevitable brake failure? Don't get me wrong. This is a great idea. You should do this exercise regularly so that you don't forget what it will feel like. Imagine every car owner having to learn the details of how his braking system works so that he will more likely survive THE FAILURE of his wonderful braking system. This is amazing.

 

[WLDWST]

Panic? Well I guess I did get a little agitated and so would you at 70mph on a crowded highway. If ever there was a time to panic I guess it would be then. Do not trivialize this type of situation. I have had muscle cars and bracket cars all my life and consider myself quite a capable driver. I would never use a Powermaster in any car I own period. They are a death trap waiting to happen, and when it happens to you, you will be a believer. Until then keep that thought in the back of your mind. Oh, and make sure you service it regularly. Not that it will make a difference if something electrcal fails with zero warning.

 

[Just a Six??]

Yeh, I loved mine too till one day it just about cost me my car and who knows what else. The kicker is that it never showed one sign of failure till that moment. The relay seized on the motor. This was on a busy freeway late at night. Ask the guy who crashed his GNX at the racetrack if he thinks the Powermaster is a great setup. When it works it works. When it doesn't it could cost you your life or someone elses. I would also recommend the vacuum system just because of price and it also works well.

Thats why mine came out in about 91 Almost lost the car!!
Sorry, my balls arent big enuf or stupid enuf! Vacuum all the way!

 

[A2000RICH]

I find this amazing. What other braking system in recent history requires you to prepare yourself for inevitable brake failure? Don't get me wrong. This is a great idea. You should do this exercise regularly so that you don't forget what it will feel like. Imagine every car owner having to learn the details of how his braking system works so that he will more likely survive THE FAILURE of his wonderful braking system. This is amazing.

inevitable failure ???------virtually every car is doomed to some kind of eventual failure----unless everything is totally backed up like an airplane and then they still fall out of the sky occasionally-------practicing a failure mode is just common sense--------i know someone that wrecked their car (not a turbo regal) because the engine stalled and they thought it had lost steering-----thye panicked------they just weren't trained to respond to a sudden loss of power steering assist....RC

 

[Just a Six??]

inevitable failure ???------virtually every car is doomed to some kind of eventual failure----unless everything is totally backed up like an airplane and then they still fall out of the sky occasionally-------practicing a failure mode is just common sense--------i know someone that wrecked their car (not a turbo regal) because the engine stalled and they thought it had lost steering-----thye panicked------they just weren't trained to respond to a sudden loss of power steering assist....RC

Let me guess? H'mm some women driver? Young Kid? New driver? We have ALL had a car stall when driving I would bet. I know I have.

 

[A2000RICH]

Panic? Well I guess I did get a little agitated and so would you at 70mph on a crowded highway. If ever there was a time to panic I guess it would be then. Do not trivialize this type of situation. I have had muscle cars and bracket cars all my life and consider myself quite a capable driver. I would never use a Powermaster in any car I own period. They are a death trap waiting to happen, and when it happens to you, you will be a believer. Until then keep that thought in the back of your mind. Oh, and make sure you service it regularly. Not that it will make a difference if something electrcal fails with zero warning.

you display your ignorance of the PM by stating it will fail with zero warning-------remove the fuse and you still have about 6 to 8 assisted stops and unlimited non power assisted stops-------like your friend says "ignorance is not a charm"---------i own over 50 GN's and you think i have never had a PM problem???--------if you understand it it's a non event...........RC

 

[A2000RICH]

Let me guess? H'mm some women driver? Young Kid? New driver? We have ALL had a car stall when driving I would bet. I know I have.

yes it was a lady--------i also know someone that was killed when a tire blew out on their SUV------flipped over several times at highway speed--------imagine that-------driving a vehicle with only air between you and death-------sounds pretty stupid to me-------i think we should all go to solid tires instead of learning how to deal with a flat...............RC

 

[Alky V6]

inevitable failure ???------virtually every car is doomed to some kind of eventual failure----unless everything is totally backed up like an airplane and then they still fall out of the sky occasionally-------practicing a failure mode is just common sense--------i know someone that wrecked their car (not a turbo regal) because the engine stalled and they thought it had lost steering-----thye panicked------they just weren't trained to respond to a sudden loss of power steering assist....RC

Yes, I say inevitable. What would you say is the percentage of TR owners that have not had some issue with their PM? I take it you rebuild them. I'll bet you're pretty busy making some good dough.

I would love to see a national survey showing the models of car involved in accidents due to major brake failure. Of course, that would only represent a small percentage of what's really going on in the streets because of close calls that did not create an accident.

I can tell you from the cars and trucks that come into my shop. The only vehicle that comes into our bays for a major repair on their braking system, other than just your normal brake service, are the TRs with PMs. I've switched over 3 systems on TRs in the last 3 months. What other model vehicle can compare to that type of record? Please answer.

One of the customers was smart enough to switch the system over BEFORE it failed. I guess he didn't want to go through disaster preparedness training.

 

[WLDWST]

you display your ignorance of the PM by stating it will fail with zero warning-------remove the fuse and you still have about 6 to 8 assisted stops and unlimited non power assisted stops-------like your friend says "ignorance is not a charm"---------i own over 50 GN's and you think i have never had a PM problem???--------if you understand it it's a non event...........RC

There is no reason to be insulting. You don't know me that well. You assume everyone is an idiot and believes this panic crap. This is my experience and it was a real event that almost cost me serious damge if not my life. I am only trying to relay this to other board members. You on the other hand make it sound like a non event that is easily handled. That is BS. All situations cannot be accessed instantly. When my PM failed I had several assisted stops. At that speed on a busy highway the get used up very quickly. I don't care if youv'e had 50 GN's. One PM malfunction at a inconvenient time is extremely dangerous.

 

[A2000RICH]

Yes, I say inevitable. What would you say is the percentage of TR owners that have not had some issue with their PM? I take it you rebuild them. I'll bet you're pretty busy making some good dough.

I would love to see a national survey showing the models of car involved in accidents due to major brake failure. Of course, that would only represent a small percentage of what's really going on in the streets because of close calls that did not create an accident.

I can tell you from the cars and trucks that come into my shop. The only vehicle that comes into our bays for a major repair on their braking system, other than just your normal brake service, are the TRs with PMs. I've switched over 3 systems on TRs in the last 3 months. What other model vehicle can compare to that type of record? Please answer.

good dough??-------not at all------like most of what i do in my shop i do it for fun and to help other TR owners----------I seriously doubt a survey would point to the TR as a brake trap like you suggest--------i really believe that data like that would trigger a safety recall of rather large consequences---------and those high numbers of repairs you have experienced would be almost non existant if the owners would have simply changed their brake fluid occasionally---------as for major brake failures I assume that you don't work on early 90's ABS units????--------from what i have seen the failure rate among them is endemic--------as for all those units you are removing????------do you want to sell them???............RC