reuse Alto band?

[RA3Goat]

I took this trans apart when the governor spring fell out and sediment was in the pan. There was more sediment then I thought there should be. The trans was rebuilt very shortly before the spring fell out. The clutches still have the manufacturer's printing on them and shifted great.

Should I replace the 2nd gear band while I have it apart? or is it ok to use? the drum surface looks ok.
thanks.

 

[mikestertwo]

Is it your camera or is the band black? From looking at the picture, I would replace it.

 

[SSedan64]

Kevlar band?

 

[quickt]

Replace it. If that is a red band its glazed and failing. Looks kinda Green thats a Kevlar band. If Kevlar I would not use it anyway even if it was new. Check the pin apply area to be sure the pin is not pushing threw the band.

 

[Steve V]

Replace it, doesn't look too good at all.

 

[bison]

Post pics of the drum. You should probably replace that also

 

[RA3Goat]

a new band it is...

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I'll get a new band.
Yes, the band is dark, but does not appear glazed. I assume the Alto Red band should stay red under normal use, since the fluid is red? I don't have pics of the drum at the moment (not home), but it does not look glazed or worn either. I'll post pics of the drum soon.

 

[quickt]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I'll get a new band.
Yes, the band is dark, but does not appear glazed. I assume the Alto Red band should stay red under normal use, since the fluid is red? I don't have pics of the drum at the moment (not home), but it does not look glazed or worn either. I'll post pics of the drum soon.

That band looks Kevlar (green) Maybe its camera but that band appears to have a shine on the surface. That is glazed. The black finish is also evidence of glazing. I see the pin has started to wear into the band. Look like someone has welded it to keep it from breaking threw.

 

[V6RACER]

Is that a carbon band possibly?

 

[quickt]

Is that a carbon band possibly?

Carbon is black as coal. The only two Alto makes is Red and Kevlar. It does look like a Hi energy material kinda. It definitely is not Red lining.

 

[V6RACER]

Carbon is black as coal. The only two Alto makes is Red and Kevlar. It does look like a Hi energy material kinda. It definitely is not Red lining.

Now that I went out to the shop and got a carbon band to look at. I see he might have a kevlar lined band..

see carbon Alto Band below, it has squared off oil passages unlike the one posted by Goat..

 

[quickt]

Now that I went out to the shop and got a carbon band I see it might be a kevlar lined band..

see carbon Alto Band below

Thats Carbon

 

[V6RACER]

Thats Carbon

Yep, Alto wide carbon. I don't have any Kevlar lined here.. Just red and carbon.

 

[quickt]

Yep, Alto wide carbon. I don't have any Kevlar lined here.. Just red and carbon.

That Carbon looks real close to the ones I now have made. Mine dont have the metallic look though. Wonder why they put them on the old style carrier? Smart man Kevlar is junk.

 

[RA3Goat]

My friend who rebuilds trannys called it a green band. Alto's website mentions the Red band and the Super Duty Kevlar band. So I assume it's Kevlar. It's performed well. It really isn't shiny in person.
Pictures of the drum are below. It's discolored but no signs of heat or blueing. I couldn't feel any gouges with my finger nail either.

 

[V6RACER]

Looks like the band may be dragging on the drum.. The kevlar will chew up that drum if it is left in for any length of time. Make sure the drum surface is completely machined flat and the correct outside diameter..

 

[turbokinetic]

That looks like a green Kevlar band that is used but still OK. If the trans was working well other than the governor I would not bother replacing it... unless you just happen to have a new one on-hand.

Make sure the new one isidentical. I got a 440T4 band that had the servo pin tab in the wrong place and didn't catch it. No reverse and had to pull the trans back out to fix it. Put the old band back in that I had just replaced and it is good as gold.

Just my $0.02 worth!
Respectfully,
David

 

[quickt]

Kevlar does not make for a good band. It will slip before it holds. Wears the drum over time. Drum looks discolored from dragging or the band slip before apply. Kevlar release is very fast can cause timing issues 2-3 flair and direct clutch wear from 2-3 flair or slide. Kevlar is tough material but other issues is one reason most builders in the know wont use them. Bands don't cost that much just buy new.

 

[turbokinetic]

Kevlar does not make for a good band. It will slip before it holds. Wears the drum over time. Drum looks discolored from dragging or the band slip before apply. Kevlar release is very fast can cause timing issues 2-3 flair and direct clutch wear from 2-3 flair or slide. Kevlar is tough material but other issues is one reason most builders in the know wont use them. Bands don't cost that much just buy new.

I see. Last rebuild kit I used contained a mix of black (carbon?) and red Borg Warner clutches. Second and fourth clutches are carbon and third is Red IIRC.

I reused all the bands. They all looked like new because this trans does not use bands to upshift. Just used for garage shift from P/N into gear, or manual second. It's a 4T65E trans.

Got a couple questions.

First, does your bad opinion of Kevlar bands apply to clutch plates too? I would expect the wear of the steels would not matter because they get discarded when the lined plates are replaced.

Also, what do you think of the carbon clutches? The torque converter I'm using contains a carbon TCC clutch and the manufacturer guarenteed it to be "almost indestructable."

If everything else is the same (line pressure, clutch surface area etc) which type of friction material will carry the most torque before it is overpowered and begins to slip?

I've always bought the clutches as a set and never really given much thought about using different friction materials.

Remember, I'm a transmission "rebuilder" (one who can successfully rebuild following ATSG instructions) not a transmission "builder" like you guys who engineer your own improvements. I'm still learning!

Later,
David

 

[quickt]

I see. Last rebuild kit I used contained a mix of black (carbon?) and red Borg Warner clutches. Second and fourth clutches are carbon and third is Red IIRC.

I reused all the bands. They all looked like new because this trans does not use bands to upshift. Just used for garage shift from P/N into gear, or manual second. It's a 4T65E trans.

Got a couple questions.

First, does your bad opinion of Kevlar bands apply to clutch plates too? I would expect the wear of the steels would not matter because they get discarded when the lined plates are replaced.

Also, what do you think of the carbon clutches? The torque converter I'm using contains a carbon TCC clutch and the manufacturer guarenteed it to be "almost indestructable."

If everything else is the same (line pressure, clutch surface area etc) which type of friction material will carry the most torque before it is overpowered and begins to slip?

I've always bought the clutches as a set and never really given much thought about using different friction materials.

Remember, I'm a transmission "rebuilder" (one who can successfully rebuild following ATSG instructions) not a transmission "builder" like you guys who engineer your own improvements. I'm still learning!

Later,
David

Everyone has an opinion heres mine. Kevlar is good material as long as its used in a non shifting application. Carbon is a great material and is commonly know as Hi Energy. Will with stand huge amounts of slip and heat without failure and minimal damage. They still can over heat and fail. The Hi energy clutches contain carbon but are not 100% carbon. The more carbon the more heat capacity but the more slip. So the Hi energy clutch is a mixed bag. I do agree the TQ with 100% carbon clutch is almost indestructible. If you do blow threw it the clutch will live and damage nothing. IMO The best clutch that can be used in a shifting app. with most static hold and shortest shift time is the blue plates. The reds fall in between the Hi energy and the blues as far as static hold. The Hi energy is superior when it comes to heat and cooling ability even though they may not have as much static hold as the others. I tested the carbon band about 2 years ago and we would back the TV cable off and slide the crap out of it several times. Tighten the cable up and she would shift firm once again. When using the red lining one hard slip and she was done. After the carbon test pulling the trans apart the direct drum was blue from the over heating but no wear damage. The carbon band has about the same shift time as the red so IMO its the clear winner. As most know with these little 200s you dont get to slip that band with out failure to many times. In most cases its once or twice. At the least with the carbon you have wiggle room just in case that TV cable is not set correctly or breaks or what ever the case may be.