Steel Caps or Girdle (Which is Stronger)

[Grumpy]

well not everyone can afford a Stage 2 set up. With the better parts available out there now why bother with the stock stuff. I still have my grenade sitting here waiting to go back in a car.. Sure has taken a beating for stock junk. Oh back to the question.. I like the girdles.. Opinions opinions :biggrin:

 

[GARY HARVEY]

Hey.. I can't afford one either..

But I've got one and decided to bite the bullet after all the money invested trying to keep a stock block together, beat me into buying the S2 (a piece at a time).
I guess I should have paid more attention when my
fascination for V6 Regal's started in 84' with the same piece I now have.
Call me a junkie.. Thank You

 

[turbofabricator]

My two cents........A girdle all the way. Caps require a GOOD machinist to install and they require a line BORE and hone to fit correctly. I have seen experienced machinist really screw a block up by installing them wrong, primarily the thrust cap.
A girdle is tedious to install but anyone can do it on an engine stand if they have decent skills and have the caps machined to accept the girdle. Hardest part is to get the pan rail indexed correctly. I hand file or mill the pan rail to flat prior to torquing everything up. THEN have a quick line hone. Be SURE to mill the cap parting line AND the bottom of the cap when you have them milled flat. If you forget to grind the parting line and then have it all shimmed up ready for a line hone, there is nothing for the machinst to remove when he line hones it straight. ALL the caps need cutting, but it's not rocket science. Take your time and use "The Right Stuff" between the girdle and the block. Also be very careful rolling the block around on the floor with the supplied pan rail studs, as they are VERY brittle and will break. Bumping the block against the floor or another engine etc. they will snap right off. Be sure to remove them when doing any further machinework/hot tanking, as just a simple bump will snap them. (ask me how I know. awwww....don't bother, I think you know)

 

[Grumpy]

But I've got one and decided to bite the bullet after all the money invested trying to keep a stock block together, beat me into buying the S2 (a piece at a time).
I guess I should have paid more attention when my
fascination for V6 Regal's started in 84' with the same piece I now have.
Call me a junkie.. Thank You

I have one to but really haven't put it to use yet(well did sell off some of the "kool guy parts" :biggrin. I love pushing the stock junk BUT if/when it breaks it's so sad to bad. Life in the big city

 

[jasjamz]

I have one to but really haven't put it to use yet(well did sell off some of the "kool guy parts" :biggrin. I love pushing the stock junk BUT if/when it breaks it's so sad to bad. Life in the big city

How much for those cool guy valve covers? You don't need those.... And where on earth did you get that crank pulley?

On topic: steel crank, steel caps, no girdle...they only create another spot to leak LOL

 

[Grumpy]

How much for those cool guy valve covers? You don't need those.... And where on earth did you get that crank pulley?

Pulley was on it when I got it. The valve covers an Hogan sheet metal intake are gone. Along with the Fast, ATR headers an a 76 turbo. Can't leave junk like that around me . Especially when I go on selling spree's

 

[Race Jace]

We have done lots and lots of these. We have brain stormed with all the fastest guys behind the scene and this is pretty much our conclusion.

If anyone thinks caps are stronger than a girdled motor they are incorrect.

the billet caps work great at keeping the caps from breaking. that is it.

This is not even half the issue. The main webbing on these blocks is so thin and weak it is amazing we are getting the kind of power we are out of them. This is where the girdle helps the most. it changes the shape of the entire structure of the block. Without a girdle the only thing keeping your caps from walking and the crank in place is the little register portion of the block. that little 1/4" high press fit shoulder at the edge of the cap. With the girdle you are holding it from both sides top and bottom. Of course it helps keep the cap from walking and the crank to hold its shape.

If you do not have a decent register the girdle will not fix this problem.

We have never seen a cap break or had a customer have a stock cap break with one of our girdles. Once you install the girdle the cap just does not do much.

Are the caps totally usless? I dont think so. in an all out effort caps and a girdle are a good idea because it opens you up to allow options like pining the caps to the girdle ect. where i would not want to induce a stress riser with a stock cap when you are really going to lean on it hard.

here is our standard reply when asked this question.
down to 11.20s nothing is really needed just a good set of stock caps that fit tight in the register.
11.20s to 10.50 caps
10.90s to 9.50s girdle with stock caps
lower than that you will probably be looking at both and some other tricks to keep things in place.

this is just a guideline to be safe. not to be considered absolute limits of the components. all of these blocks/cranks ect are not created equal.

and as for price. i think it is about 6s. unless you are talking about just doing the center two caps then the caps might be slightly cheaper. if you are doing all 4 the girdle with the stock caps is cheaper by the time it is done.

 

[turbofabricator]

We have done lots and lots of these. We have brain stormed with all the fastest guys behind the scene and this is pretty much our conclusion.

If anyone thinks caps are stronger than a girdled motor they are incorrect.

the billet caps work great at keeping the caps from breaking. that is it.

This is not even half the issue. The main webbing on these blocks is so thin and weak it is amazing we are getting the kind of power we are out of them. This is where the girdle helps the most. it changes the shape of the entire structure of the block. Without a girdle the only thing keeping your caps from walking and the crank in place is the little register portion of the block. that little 1/4" high press fit shoulder at the edge of the cap. With the girdle you are holding it from both sides top and bottom. Of course it helps keep the cap from walking and the crank to hold its shape.

If you do not have a decent register the girdle will not fix this problem.

We have never seen a cap break or had a customer have a stock cap break with one of our girdles. Once you install the girdle the cap just does not do much.

Are the caps totally usless? I dont think so. in an all out effort caps and a girdle are a good idea because it opens you up to allow options like pining the caps to the girdle ect. where i would not want to induce a stress riser with a stock cap when you are really going to lean on it hard.

here is our standard reply when asked this question.
down to 11.20s nothing is really needed just a good set of stock caps that fit tight in the register.
11.20s to 10.50 caps
10.90s to 9.50s girdle with stock caps
lower than that you will probably be looking at both and some other tricks to keep things in place.

this is just a guideline to be safe. not to be considered absolute limits of the components. all of these blocks/cranks ect are not created equal.

and as for price. i think it is about 6s. unless you are talking about just doing the center two caps then the caps might be slightly cheaper. if you are doing all 4 the girdle with the stock caps is cheaper by the time it is done.

X2. My thoughts exactly. But then again............what do I know.:tongue:

 

[getchasum]

If you do not have a decent register the girdle will not fix this problem.

Would this be from poor casting or what are you referring to?

Are the caps totally usless? in an all out effort caps and a girdle are a good idea because it opens you up to allow options like pining the caps to the girdle ect

Would love to see some pictures of something like this if anyone has any.

this is just a guideline to be safe. not to be considered absolute limits of the components. all of these blocks/cranks ect are not created equal.

I often hear folks talk about core shift from poor casting.... I understand what it is and how it happened, I just don't know what it looks like. I really don't know what to look for to actually see if I have a poorly casted block or not. For members like myself that go junkyard diving, pulling blocks to be built and for spares, we may have several sitting around. What does one need to look for when trying to pick his best of the best block. If anyone actually has pictures of some examples of poor casting/core shift. this would be a great thread to show case as many of the experts have posted some great info here.

 

[TTipe]

Engine Longevity with Stock Bottom End

A proper engine balance and a lighter weight torque converter will also help stock caps and a stock crank survive.Eliminating obvious stress risers in the correct locations will help to reduce fracture initialization. The forces applied to the crank are not just shearing ( the force from combustion applied to the rod pin) but also torsional ( the twist from accelerating the crank with a heavy converter hanging on the end).The vibrational harmonics from an unbalanced engine are destructive at higher power levels.Zero knock must always be the case.

 

[turbolou]

Reply

90 % of the people I have worked for would never have a need for a girdle. The few I have done I have found that eliminating the use of shims & machining every thing flat make the most sense.Example using the shims on Brents 10.00 car the girdle started walking around & snapped off the pan studs.I think girdles are a pain in the ass & unless there is a true need for them avoid it. Steel main caps, crank, rods & trying to make the rotating assembly as light as possible makes the most sense. If you want to make big H.P. find the right block to do that with.Just a thought has anyone ever tried pinning the main caps & is there enough room to do that.

 

[TTipe]

Main Caps

What about keying or stepping the caps to the saddle to prevent cap walk.This is also very doable but the machining would not be for amateurs.

 

[GNBRETT]

90 % of the people I have worked for would never have a need for a girdle.

are u saying 90% of ur customers have a 11.0 car or slower?

 

[turbolou]

Reply

are u saying 90% of ur customers have a 11.0 car or slower?

Most spend 80% of the time used as street cars don't even have a roll bar & only see the track occasionally cause 99% of our local tracks have disappeared.How many times have you been to the track lately & that is the point.

 

[Ed Valvo]

The mid to low 10 second engines I've seen locally with stock cranks showed bearing wear and main cap walking after a season of racing in a 3700 car. Now this was before we had efficient converters so I'd say these engines were really closer to low 10 or high 9 second capable rides. After an RJC girdle installation, the bearings looked much better if not perfect after a season of racing. This was with stock cranks only. I have not seen one pulled apart with a forged/steel crank yet.

 

[GNBRETT]

Most spend 80% of the time used as street cars don't even have a roll bar & only see the track occasionally cause 99% of our local tracks have disappeared.How many times have you been to the track lately & that is the point.

well thats the same for up here. id say most of the cars are in that range. although Bisons car goes faster then most and his car has lived through some absolute torture and he has no girdle. its tuned well tho

 

[turbolou]

Reply

well thats the same for up here. id say most of the cars are in that range. although Bisons car goes faster then most and his car has lived through some absolute torture and he has no girdle. its tuned well tho

Brett that has been my experience. I build what people want & use a common sense approach. We can all dream of 9 & 8 second cars but what is the reality for the average person. A car that can be driven & enjoyed or something that sits in the garage apart waiting for the next paycheck. Building & maintaining a high H.P. turbo car requires a lot of attention to detail & maintenance well above the average person. So I do just fine without the need for a girdle & all its complications.

 

[Detomaso71]

S2 block

As far as why not just get a stage block and avoid steel caps or girdles many of the guys doing this are required to run a 109 block (THS, TSM etc)

I would already have a bad azz TA block otherwise.
Yeah they are expensive but I havent found much in the buick world that isnt expensive in my short tour of duty.
If I bust mine up again I will go TA and put a larger turbo on and roll e85 all over the locals around here and then drive it to work to boot.
Pinks all out?

 

[quickt]

If anyone thinks caps are stronger than a girdled motor they are incorrect.

I totally agree!!!!!!!!!


Stock caps and a girdle my choice.

 

[Chris Hogeland]

Would this be from poor casting or what are you referring to?




Would love to see some pictures of something like this if anyone has any.



I often hear folks talk about core shift from poor casting.... I understand what it is and how it happened, I just don't know what it looks like. I really don't know what to look for to actually see if I have a poorly casted block or not. For members like myself that go junkyard diving, pulling blocks to be built and for spares, we may have several sitting around. What does one need to look for when trying to pick his best of the best block. If anyone actually has pictures of some examples of poor casting/core shift. this would be a great thread to show case as many of the experts have posted some great info here.

Here you go.