Stock Block Sustained High RPM

[CTX-SLPR]

Howdy,

I'm working up the plan and funding to get into Land Speed Racing (LSR) using the Turbo6. Since LSR is WOT for minute+ to cover the 3mi course, I'd like my motor to stay together for that long repeatedly without worry.
I'm planning a 109 block foundation with a stock crank to start with because money is tight and I've got all the overhead of setting the car up with a new rear axle, roll cage, fire system...etc. However I do want to use the same basic foundation in terms of block, heads, and pistons in the future so I'm willing to invest in keeping the crank stable in the block.

I'm thinking a girdle will be needed but I've got 0 experience here. Any other tricks to keeping it together at 6000rpm out the top end of the course? I've seen casual refferences to internally balancing a stock crank for rpm use, any further comentary on this?

Thanks,

 

[bison]

Howdy,

I'm working up the plan and funding to get into Land Speed Racing (LSR) using the Turbo6. Since LSR is WOT for minute+ to cover the 3mi course, I'd like my motor to stay together for that long repeatedly without worry.
I'm planning a 109 block foundation with a stock crank to start with because money is tight and I've got all the overhead of setting the car up with a new rear axle, roll cage, fire system...etc. However I do want to use the same basic foundation in terms of block, heads, and pistons in the future so I'm willing to invest in keeping the crank stable in the block.

I'm thinking a girdle will be needed but I've got 0 experience here. Any other tricks to keeping it together at 6000rpm out the top end of the course? I've seen casual refferences to internally balancing a stock crank for rpm use, any further comentary on this?

Thanks,

Id plan on 500hp max and start with a non abused engine. You shoudnt need to be over 5500 rpm either. A manual trans with a .80:1 high gear will probably work well. With money being tight you are asking for a lot. The amount of ching needed to build a car that will be stable at speed would be much more any drag racer spends on a 9 sec chassis even with only 500hp. One minute of WOT will be over 170mph. If it were me id find a chassis already set up and just go with an LS.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

With all due respect Bison, I don't think you get what I'm after. Now that's partly my fault since I was being intenionally a bit vague. Being in the military gives you a paranoia about operations security so it translates over to not wanting to divulge my plans specifically.

I'm after chasing a specific record, one for a stock displacement Turbo6 but in the classic category so no EFI. I can't run an LS nor do I want to in a Buick. Also I don't need 500hp for my mph goal, per the basic math, I should be able to make 140mph in 3 miles with far less. Plans do not call for a manual either, TH350C should do the job for a good while. Now I'm sure I'm going turn the wick up progressively but I need to learn to carb tune and drive the salt in that time period too. I'm really looking for what are good things to start with to make the motor survivable long term.
Already planning decent pistons, polished stock rods, and a stock crank. Should I invest in making the crank neutral balance? Is a girdle needed?

I'd rather not spend the money on the "heavy lifting" machine work twice. Rebalancing a crank isn't that big of a deal but converting to neutral balance with the supporting balancer and flexplate is a larger expense. Same deal with the line hone on the mains, main cap and pan rail machine work to fit the girdle.

Thanks,

 

[gnon18s]

Subscribed

 

[bison]

With all due respect Bison, I don't think you get what I'm after. Now that's partly my fault since I was being intenionally a bit vague. Being in the military gives you a paranoia about operations security so it translates over to not wanting to divulge my plans specifically.

I'm after chasing a specific record, one for a stock displacement Turbo6 but in the classic category so no EFI. I can't run an LS nor do I want to in a Buick. Also I don't need 500hp for my mph goal, per the basic math, I should be able to make 140mph in 3 miles with far less. Plans do not call for a manual either, TH350C should do the job for a good while. Now I'm sure I'm going turn the wick up progressively but I need to learn to carb tune and drive the salt in that time period too. I'm really looking for what are good things to start with to make the motor survivable long term.
Already planning decent pistons, polished stock rods, and a stock crank. Should I invest in making the crank neutral balance? Is a girdle needed?

I'd rather not spend the money on the "heavy lifting" machine work twice. Rebalancing a crank isn't that big of a deal but converting to neutral balance with the supporting balancer and flexplate is a larger expense. Same deal with the line hone on the mains, main cap and pan rail machine work to fit the girdle.

Thanks,

Well 800hp gets you to 140mph in about 10.5 secs with a 3600lb car with a slow roll out
I wouldn't build it girdled or change pistons unless the funds allowed it. The stock piston is heavy but very durable at that power level. Neutraling a stock crank will cost as much as a forged crank. If I could do one thing it would be a steel crank. Id swing stock rods and pistons to save the $ rather than neutral balancing a stocker. Taking away the flex would be of
prime importance to me. I'd also use the back of the engine to transfer the load to the chassis rather than the engine mount locations. Adjust ring gaps for sustained heat. Better yet trash the heavy stock pistons for some lighter forgings and run a steel top ring. The stock pistons use 5/64 rings and there isnt crap for rings out there for a 3.800 bore in that size. This is getting expensive.

 

[gnpoweredrail]

^^^LMAO!!!

 

[Nick Micale]

Not sure about your exact goals and rules, but a local customer entered his stock GN in the 135 MPH class a few months ago at the 26th World of Speed on the Utah salt flats.

His official time was 136+ MPH.

One item we did change was the fuel pump to assure more than ample fuel supply. Of course it did have additional safety equipment and speed rated tires, but the engine was all stock and good gas was used!

Next year he will enter the 150 MPH class as he will turn up the boost.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

Rules I'm starting the mental build against is the SCTA Classic Production Supercharged, which is 28-81 inclusive factory supercharged cars without EFI. That's a blowthrough carbed turbo in an 81 Regal for me. 3 mile course for a full run though there is potentially a 2 mile course for rookies that I'd doubt I'd make my mph target on.

There is a 139.5XXmph record for the E motor which is the 183-260cid class and no record for the F motor which is less than 183. The easiest one technically is going to be the E motor since the stock parts already fit the displacement range and the aftermarket is geared to support it. The F motor isn't too hard but would require custom pistons at the least since a 2.66in crank out of a 3.0L needs a lot less dish even if you fill the space with long rods.

Certianly sounds doable.

 

[Nick Micale]

I have to compliment you on your plan and goals in building your car/engine for a specific place in an organized event!

It is refreshing to see a thought-out plan with your goals, not just dyno numbers, or just wanting to go "fast", that is unusual, and should be a lot of fun no matter if you achieve the ultimate number or not.

A performance vehicle is very enjoyable on the street, but to place your skills and technical knowledge against your peers will give you a great amount of satisfaction. To me, that is the most gratifying part of what I do myself, and for others!

Good luck in this endeavor, and look forward to your progress as you go forward!

 

[dr_frankenstein]

you can really push your luck and go draw-thru

'a-la fregada style.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

No draw through, money isn't that tight that I'd try that crazy idea!

Thanks for your support Nick, do you have any suggestions as to what to plan on for a durable engine? Per the basic calculation of 150mph with the Cd and FA of the 81-87 Regal, I need around 250hp. I'm shooting for 300hp since it will be more likely that I don't drive and/or tune to the full potential of the engine so some to spare wouldn't hurt.

 

[we4Mateo]

No draw through, money isn't that tight that I'd try that crazy idea!

Thanks for your support Nick, do you have any suggestions as to what to plan on for a durable engine? Per the basic calculation of 150mph with the Cd and FA of the 81-87 Regal, I need around 250hp. I'm shooting for 300hp since it will be more likely that I don't drive and/or tune to the full potential of the engine so some to spare wouldn't hurt.

I'd think a stock and well prepared 109 would do 300hp to the wheels reliably. I run mine on back country roads now for over a mile at more rwhp than that and mine is all stock except for the cam. I'm no expert but I think good gas or a large alky reservoir should do it

I'm very interested in this project btw. Good luck.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

I think they have 110-113 Octane (R+M/2) gas onsite so not so worried about that. Same thing with a one shot intercooler vs. an air-to-air. Straight water injection is legal in the class, no meth withou moving into a "Fuel" class and I'm pretty sure Production has to run on "Gas".
Sounds like I need to find a good 109 and stock heads and start building the motor slowly while I hunt for an 81 Regal that hasn't been chopped up into a lowrider!

Summary I'm reading is, GOOD balance job on the rotating assembly, regapped rings, general reffesh of bearings and seals, possible new cam. If I wanted to get fancy forged pistons and crank.

Valvetrain: is the stock shaft and stamped rockers going to be up to it? Pushrods up to the task? Probably should invest in LT-1 valve springs.
Oil return: Is there enough return out of the heads into the pan to keep from oil starving it on the top end?
Plugs: I'm guessing I'd need to run colder plugs than a drag application since they will heat soak more
Block Fill: Is filling the block enough to make a difference going to kill cooling? I believe stock blocks of all kinds need help in the main bulkhead department but I might just be thinking my 8484 4.1 block in my Riviera.

Other thoughts?

 

[Eticket]

there are short stroke cranks and long carillos out there for cheap..almost free if you would considering going down on cubic inches.

 

[CTX-SLPR]

there are short stroke cranks and long carillos out there for cheap..almost free if you would considering going down on cubic inches.

I would consider going down but only if it got me below 183cid. Otherwise I'm just shooting myself in the foot. For a 3.80in bore, the biggest really is a 2.66in stroke for 181cid.

 

[ek02]

This thread will be very interesting. Just the SCTA rules for the roll cage, safety equipment, and chassis are a big challenge, let alone having an engine that will survive. Going to Bonneville and then getting turned away at tech inspection would be discouraging. I wish you the best of luck. The first time you set foot on the salt is an incredible experience.

 

[turbo nasty]

I see you asked about oil returns in the engine. At the upper far right and left of the drain back holes in the heads youll notice the head gasket blocks the holes partially....trim the gasket that will help. Short stroke will very likely require custom piston to get your wrist pin height correct. I would get as light as possible. Get a hold of Lonnie Diers as i know he made s high winding short stroke engine a few years back. I say go for it!!! Good luck and keep us posted

 

[turbodave231]

I went to Bonneville for Speed Week last year.......what a cool event!! I hung out with George Poteet (friend of a friend) and watched as Ken Dutwieller and Dale Cherry tuned on two of his cars.

If you plan to stay wet sump, consider a larger capacity oil pan. A kicked-out pan would be a good idea. Sustained High RPM tends to send all the oil upstairs and may empty the pan. I have friends who are both record holders at Bonneville in a 2nd gen Camaro and their advice to me was: Run a dry sump and get a HUGE supply tank.

Thinking about short stroke cranks, last time we talked, Neil S. (750HP V6) had a few short stroke cranks he was using for door stops. There are plenty of these around. I think Mike Booher still has sets of new Oliver 6.750 rods. He would be another person who might be able to set you up with a crank and some rods for a price you can afford.

Invest in a good stable crank, strong rods and a good balancer and it will pay you back.

Dave

 

[CTX-SLPR]

I went to Bonneville for Speed Week last year.......what a cool event!! I hung out with George Poteet (friend of a friend) and watched as Ken Dutwieller and Dale Cherry tuned on two of his cars.

If you plan to stay wet sump, consider a larger capacity oil pan. A kicked-out pan would be a good idea. Sustained High RPM tends to send all the oil upstairs and may empty the pan. I have friends who are both record holders at Bonneville in a 2nd gen Camaro and their advice to me was: Run a dry sump and get a HUGE supply tank.

Thinking about short stroke cranks, last time we talked, Neil S. (750HP V6) had a few short stroke cranks he was using for door stops. There are plenty of these around. I think Mike Booher still has sets of new Oliver 6.750 rods. He would be another person who might be able to set you up with a crank and some rods for a price you can afford.

Invest in a good stable crank, strong rods and a good balancer and it will pay you back.

Dave

Thanks Dave,

I've actually dealt with Mike in the past since we both lived in Dayton at the time (I've since moved twice), I'll have to get in touch and see what he has laying around. Same with Neil, have to see if he's got a really short stroke crank around as well. I guess I can go up and down in a small region around 3.400, but I'd really be shooting myself in the foot if I go less for making power since that class has a record.

Definately going to work the oil pan over using the stocker as a source for the pan rail then make it as deep and wide as possible and I'm thinking how to drain the heads externally back into the pan. Want the valve springs covered to keep them cool but not to the point of emptying the pan.

Got to sell parts to buy new parts and such...

 

[Reggie West]

I would call Ken Duttweiler and talk to him. He will point you in the right direction and he has built short stroke, high rpm Buick motors before.

That man is a wealth of automotive knowledge.