Stock ECM or Fast XFI???

[3.8vsix]

I am having a new motor built. I am not sure what route to take.
I am planning to run mid to low tens with alky. I like the idea of just going with stock ecm with a TT chip and be done with it. But is that safe? Not sure how hard it is to tune with xfi. This car will be mostly street driven with a few trips to the track. Thanks for any help!!!

 

[Boost231]

XFI all the way. Im still running the stock ecm but only for a few more weeks.

 

[JCotton]

Definitely XFI, Chip will get you there, but the XFI is what I prefer, tuning is pretty easy when you purchase from someone like myself that supports the product and is available for help. We supply a start up program, that is usually pretty close to right on the money.

 

[turbojimmy]

Definitely XFI, Chip will get you there, but the XFI is what I prefer, tuning is pretty easy when you purchase from someone like myself that supports the product and is available for help. We supply a start up program, that is usually pretty close to right on the money.

I've had mine installed for less than 48 hours, but I can say for certain that once you go FAST you'll never go back. Jack's default program was very close to perfect. With the Casper's harness it took minutes to plug in and it fired right up and idled like stock. I added a little more RPM at idle because of my cam, added a little more timing under boost and had to adjust the Rate Sensor Calibration so that my MPH would read properly. It's all straightforward and easy to figure out if you spend a little time with the instructions (and searching here).

I had to adjust my TPS and throttle blade as well, but it was no more complicated than doing it with the stock ECM.

Jim

 

["Turbo-T"]

Not to hijack the thread but I've been trying to learn more about the XFI set ups....when would you even need/want one? Is it solely for when you want to do away with the stock hall effect timing, cam sensor, etc? I see they sell for a very pretty penny.

 

[Boost231]

good question. im trying to learn as much as i can about the XFI as well. From what i have read people who go to the XFI notice a difference in the car as soon as they put it on with little to no tunning. If this is true when you get it tuned the car should run like a bat out of hell. Also the one thing i think is nice is once its set and tuned you really dont have to touch it. Also you can set more then one map which is nice so you can have a pump tune and a race tune and all you have to do is adjust boost. can someone share more info with us. Whats all involved in the install? Drill and welded 02 bung what else? do you have to do anything with any other sensors under the hood like plug anything into the crank or cam sensor? anyways please share.

 

[turbojimmy]

Okay, this is going to be long but here is my rationale:

First, it is a lot of coin to drop all at once. There are ways to get somewhat similar results by spending a little less money. However, if you want the ultimate in tunability and for future upgrades you can’t beat an aftermarket ECU like FAST. The sky is the limit with regard to future changes you can make to your engine (or a completely different engine). When you make a change, you just change the software. No more chips, no modifying the ECM for bigger injectors, no add-on data logging hardware and software. Engine management is MAP and WB02 based so you can’t really compare it to stock ECU/Chip arrangements.

I bought FAST XFI primarily on the recommendation of my engine guy. He said ‘do yourself a favor and stop messing around with the stock ECM and chips – get FAST and forget it’. I told him I was worried about the complexity and having to have a laptop with me all the time and he said a) it’s not complicated and b) you don’t need to have a laptop all the time (new FAST has internal data logging). He was right on both counts.

The closest thing to FAST XFI that is a little more cost effective would be the Translator Pro. Not having used it I can’t comment on its flexibility vs. FAST XFI, but by the time you add up all of the things you need to buy in order to get the same functionality as FAST you’re about half-way to a FAST setup. But, that remaining half is still a significant amount of money so for some people T-Pro is a good option. I’ve read here that people are in the 9s with it already.

Personally, I liked the idea of ditching the stock ECM, chip and Translator arrangement completely. All changes are now made via software and are instantly downloaded to the XFI ECU – while the engine is running so you can see the effects immediately.

You can use your stock everything: cam sensor, ignition system, VSS, etc. but you don’t have to. Casper’s interface module and harness makes it foolproof (unless you’re me, I was able to find a way to goof up the TPS and MAP wiring). It is totally plug-n-play. If you don't already have a WB02 you will need to have a bung welded into the DP. Cottons sells a complete kit. Mine worked great out of the box. The most time consuming part was hacking out my old Translator and LM-1 arrangement.

If you want to start swapping sensors and whatnot out you can do it and modify the C_COM software accordingly. I saw where don_3D had his set up for a distributor-based ignition system.

I had a couple of nagging problems with my car that were easily cured with FAST. First was the idle in my chip was too low for my new cam. With my previous setup, this requires a new chip be burned. With FAST I opened up the Coolant Temp vs. Idle Speed chart, highlighted a range of operating temperatures and dragged the line up to 910 RPM. The engine immediately picked up its idle.

My other problem was the stalling when I dropped the car into gear because of the smaller diameter Vigilante converter. It’s a common problem and the only way to fix it is to get the idle up pretty high or give the car a little gas before you drop it into gear. The FAST system seems to react to the sudden RPM drop quicker and opens the IAC quicker to keep it from stalling.

The car runs smoother, stronger and cooler now. Not sure why it’s cooler, but it is. It’s not a function of the fan cycle because I’ve run the car in ‘race fan’ mode (constant run) and the temps would still creep up. I don’t have a logical explanation, but the car stays at 165 all the time now.

Anyway, I love the FAST XFI so far. As always, there are cheaper ways to accomplish the same goals but I like the simplicity and total flexibility of the XFI. I plan to add EGT and fuel pressure monitoring to it over the next few weeks. I also want to see if I can control my alky pump with it, too.

Jim

 

[JCotton]

great post Jim, thank you, I couldn't say it better myself. As for what's involved in hooking it up, pretty simple compared to most other stand alones. I supply a jumper harness to connect to your stock engine harness, hook up the XFI box, plug in your new 3 bar map sensor, run vacumn to it, run your WBO2 wiring under the hood and hook up your WBO2 to a bung in the down pipe, that pretty much sums up the installation. After that, remove your MAF, replace that section with straight through pipe, remove any other scan tools or translaters,stck computer and sell them to help pay for the FAST... turn the key, fire it up and check the tune I supply with the box.. thats it in a nut shell, a little tweaking like Jim said and you will be amazed at the all around drivability and ability to tweak the little annoyances you might of had.. oh ya, and you can call me almost anytime for support...

 

[49-blues]

Jack what are the differences between the Fast xfi and the Big stuff 3 and the pros and cons of each?

 

[JCotton]

Jack what are the differences between the Fast xfi and the Big stuff 3 and the pros and cons of each?

I'll sum it up in one word..... SUPPORT

 

[kh440]

But is there a certain HP or ET level where one should bite the bullet and upgrade or would every performance level benefit?

 

[Tony Shoaff]

Jack you have a e-mail at Turbo38@aol. Please read and let me know.

 

[Grumpy]

let me put on my flame proof jacket here ... ok ..opp's ..zip it up .. for ME on a car that is mostly street driven and raced every now an then I'd say a TT chip all the way.. new chips have a lot of adjustability in them .. I will also add I don't have the patience to "play" with an XFI or other set ups.. Watched guys for years pop and fart goin down the track pulling their hair out trying to get them dialed in.. maybe the new systems are more user friendly remember to.. I like things done the simple way so anyone can jump into our cars and drive them to the store or a nice 2 hour drive to the lake ok let the flaming begin

 

[jasjamz]

Stock ECM!!

Grumpy, got an extra suit...
I have had 3 guys switch back to stock ECMs this summer alone and are much happier.Jack, you and Cal would never get any work done if you had to sit at the phone for hours helping answering questions that could be answered in the owners manual or the videos that FAST has available. I say that because I people won't even use the search function on here to answer simple questions...let alone read the manual to the XFI. I see Eric has a new 6.0 chip that tracks wideband thru the Power Logger, a great data logger and should be on every car that wants to learn to tune or just monitor the cars readings. If you like the Scanmaster and find it useful then your going to love the Power Logger. I see Grumpy got into the nines without it and I bet he could go even faster. But hey 9.90's for a daily driver...what more can you ask for. I just can't see the logic in a XFI, FAST, BS3, for a daily driver.

 

[turbojimmy]

Jack, you and Cal would never get any work done if you had to sit at the phone for hours helping answering questions that could be answered in the owners manual or the videos that FAST has available. I say that because I people won't even use the saerch function on here to answer simple questions...let alone read the manual to the XFI.

That's the key. You have to be willing to take the time to learn how to use the tool. FAST XFI is a huge investment that's wasted if you're not going to at least figure out how it works and what it can do for you. There's nothing wrong with getting advice from whoever sold it to you, but there's also plenty of stuff that can be sorted out if you just take the time to search, read the manual or just plain think about it.

I'm both a geek and a control freak. FAST has greatly improved the way my car runs whether cruising around town, on the highway or at WOT. I probably could have accomplished the same thing several different ways at a fraction of the cost. I look at FAST as a luxury not an absolute requirement at my performance level, but I don't regret the investment at all. I can't wait to get the car to the track.

Jim

 

[jasjamz]

That's the key. You have to be willing to take the time to learn how to use the tool. FAST XFI is a huge investment that's wasted if you're not going to at least figure out how it works and what it can do for you. There's nothing wrong with getting advice from whoever sold it to you, but there's also plenty of stuff that can be sorted out if you just take the time to search, read the manual or just plain think about it.

[GVIDEO][/GVIDEO]

Jim

My Man!! Well Put!
That should be written in the advertisement for these systems.

 

[JCotton]

Grumpy, got an extra suit...
I have had 3 guys switch back to stock ECMs this summer alone and are much happier.Jack, you and Cal would never get any work done if you had to sit at the phone for hours helping answering questions that could be answered in the owners manual or the videos that FAST has available. I say that because I people won't even use the saerch function on here to answer simple questions...let alone read the manual to the XFI. I see Eric has a new 6.0 chip that tracks wideband thru the Power Logger, a great data logger and should be on every car that wants to learn to tune or just monitor the cars readings. If you like the Scanmaster and find it useful then your going to love the Power Logger. I see Grumpy got into the nines without it and I bet he could go even faster. But hey 9.90's for a daily driver...what more can you ask for. I just can't see the logic in a XFI, FAST, BS3, for a daily driver.

No need for the flame suits, you and Gumpy didn't say anything that really opens my eyes to use a chip. First off, SOMEONE has to tune the car whether it is a chip or a FAST. In order for these chips to work, you still need a wide band, power logger, modified computer, laptop, etc.... the list goes on. Then you still have to understand what you are doing and be able to spend lots of time tweaking... if the end user can't tune with a FAST, he certainly can't tune with what you are using Jas... someone has to do the tuning.. if they can't. Now once all the components are purchased to do it with a chip properly, the cost is pretty darn close. And you still don't have anywhere near the features or capabilities of a FAST. It's hands down for mewhat I chose and recommend to my customers. Now let me also say, I sell tons of TT chips, love em... they are without a doubt the best I have ever used. I am more apt now to recommend a TT chip when I would have recommended a FAST before. I take every customer one at a time and let them decide what is the best choice. If a serious combo requires more than a chip and a stock computer, thats where I draw the line, I'll recommend the FAST everytime, especially if we are looking at running 10's or faster down the road. Street manners with a FAST are awsome. For those 3 guys that switched, I suspect they had BS3, Gen7 and had little or no support. If they had a FAST, most likely they did not purchase it from me, if they did, they didn't utilize my support.... as for the other flamers here.... it's easy to recommend anything other than a FAST when someone else does your tuning. Lets face it, I'll say it again... if you can't figure out how to tune a FAST... you can't tune a chip with the same effort.... oh ya... how long does it take to get into the 9's with a chip.... and how many sets of head gaskets and or motors does it take... the last new 109 combo I put together ran 9.90's on the first full launch with a decent 60ft... tuning with a FAST...

I will also add I don't have the patience to "play" with an XFI or other set ups.. Watched guys for years pop and fart goin down the track pulling their hair out trying to get them dialed in.. maybe the new systems are more user friendly remember to.. I like things done the simple way so anyone can jump into our cars and drive them to the store or a nice 2 hour drive to the lake ok let the flaming begin

I'm sure that is an accurate statement... unfortunately.. that statement is more fitting when referring to a chip. I'm sure many of a chip car owner has experienced that. As for the ride to the store..... my customers have no problems driving to the store and back... not to mention a trip through the mountains of New England... ahhhh... the scenery.... it's a beautiful thing. Anyone been to Reynolds, Ga the last year or 2... heard a lot of popping and farting going on down there...

 

[kh440]

. As for the ride to the store..... my customers have no problems driving to the store and back... not to mention a trip through the mountains of New England... ahhhh... the scenery.... it's a beautiful thing. ...

Thanks Jack, now you have me thinking of a long road trip that involves fried clams, Polar Cola and spending a lot of money....:biggrin: (BTW: I'm not sure all of the farting was coming from the cars)

 

[wagon]

Ah what the heck, I'm in a posting mode, so I'm going to reply to this one.
I have both. A chip and a FAST. I don't have XFI yet, but want to when I grow up!

The chip? Great! I have one in my sometimes daily driver, and used to used to use it in the car I race. If you don't have a laptop, or don't want to learn how to tune with one, then a chip is probably best for you. Less to mess with, and if you have good support for that chip, then it can do wonders.

FAST? Great also! I like the ability to change alot of settings. Let me repeat that. ALOT! Now, once you get alot of these settings right, you pretty much never touch them again. No need to, so having the ability to change them doesn't come into play after that. So, if you have them burned into the chip, then it is kind of the same. The advantages? Well, change your cam, change your turbo, change your fuel, change your converter? Change your program. Change your chip? More money. Now I know that chips have some adjustability now. I don't know much about that. Never used one. I probably will in the future, but can't comment now.
The reason I changed to FAST? Cost. I had just bought new injectors, and a chip. They didn't last long, a new turbo and faster times, and I had to upgrade again. That meant a new chip and a modified ECM. I could just see the next upgrade costing me another chip. So, I bit the bullet and bought the FAST from Jack. Sold my ECM, sold my MAF, and saved the cost of the mods to the ECM, and the cost of a chip. It still cost me more to get into it, but in the long run, I benefited.

They are both great, but it all depends on each individual person, what they want to accomplish, and their comfort level working with each method. It also depends on what they buy, where, and what kind of support there you are going to get.

 

[Grumpy]

well let me say give a TT chip ( best $75 you will spend) a try at your car BEFORE you go to a Fast system or whatever.. Melissa's first day out with a TT chip just plugged in with NO changes and Melissa never running anything set up like this ran a 10.8 ( forget the speed) .. Her set up is very small compared to most because this was also her summer beater .. oh ya .. we have a Scanmaster (look for NO KNOCK!!! how simple is that??) .. it doesn't take a brain surgeon to tweak the chip .. She ran 9.9s @ 138+ with the same chip (she just "pushed" the car a little more ) .. ok thats my "opinion" NOT everyone NEEDS a Fast system, 70 turbo, front mount and a lot of "other" trinkets to run in the 10's .. It may take a little more brain work to push into the 9s and then drive the car from the track and go look for a place to eat for 2 hours!! (hey we got lost !! ) .. ahhh the net !! :biggrin: