what front brake mods for street GN
- Thread starter chasmat2316
- Start date
When I said you and "old used crap" I wasnt really meaning to be offensive to the people who do it BTW... I just have been spending money on this car for 10 years and everytime I buy something slightly used or not new, I end up getting hosed on it.
I am thinking the Wilwood setup for just shy of $700 is the way to go...
I did a search on Summit and it appears that Wilwood setup is not DOT legal, so I would say its not for the street. I'm under contract negotiations at work, and when I get my retro check (if that ever happens), I am going to spring for one of those BAER brake kits that Jack Cotton sells.
Still interested in those wheels?
Hmm....
Im gonna have to call Willwood about these... not DOT legal... I wonder why...
gm rebuild kits are 13.00 ea pn# 18029813
also got the streed heat drilled rotors for 50 ea and hawk pads at pepboys and russell ss brake lines for a montecarlo i dont remember how much.
86TexasT, here is my email agcraig25@yahoo.com, please send me some pics of this conversion. What do you get for $550?
Silver Fox
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2003
My reply won't be a much help but is food for thought for all those considering brake upgrades. I have the 13 inch Baer "Track" brakes on the front of my T. They look awesome behind the Simmons wheels. However, I am now stuck with having to use 17 inch wheels (I've heard some 16's may work).
There are days I would would like to throw a set of "big ones on the back and skinny ones on the front" just to change the look, and then throw my 17' s back on for a different look. But with those 13 inch rotors, I can't.
My advice is to probably stick with smaller rotors. If I has to do it again, I would go with the smaller Baer kit that works with 15 inch wheels.
Rob
There are days I would would like to throw a set of "big ones on the back and skinny ones on the front" just to change the look, and then throw my 17' s back on for a different look. But with those 13 inch rotors, I can't.
My advice is to probably stick with smaller rotors. If I has to do it again, I would go with the smaller Baer kit that works with 15 inch wheels.
Rob
Have you had a chance to put on the ssbc calipers yet? If so, do you recommend them? I need to do an upgrade before racing season starts and I was leaning towards this upgrade but never seen anyone mention anything about them on their car.
Let me know as I want to buy these if you receommend them, thanks!
Dannyo
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
Dan, I did install them and they work great but to be perfectly honest, you could rebuild the stockers and they would perform just as well IMO. :wink:
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Hydroboost Makes The Car Faster
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Impossible you say? The hydroboost stops the car much quicker, which reduces rotor heat.The hydroboost allows the turbo to spoll up 22lbs of boost with your foot on the brake. With the Hydrobost, you can haul the car down from high speeds, safely. Someone recommended other rotors to make up for the lost pressure from a vacuum booster conversion. Exactly. Lost pressure. Pressure is what stops the car. If the car will not stop when the rotors are cold, then what good does it do to drill holes in the rotors? All disc brakes require double the pressure (over 1200psi) to operate effectively. The vacuum booster needs vacuum, and the turbo charged 231ci. G.N. has very little. Without vacuum, the vacuum booster only puts out 500-850 psi, depending on how hard you can push. Power brake units have a control valve that opens with your foot on the brake pedal. Opening the control valve allows the booster to apply the brakes. The booster applys the pressure, not your leg muscle. If there is no vacuum to pull on the diaphragms. there is no booster. You are building brake pressure with your leg muscle. There is no "magic" disc pad. It just comes down to pressure. Installing larger wheel cyls raises the pressure against the brake shoes. Installing larger caliper pistons raises the pressure against the pads. It is Line pressure (psi) multiplied by the square inches of surface area of the piston. Most of the street rod guys have more horsepower than they have brakes, Can they hold the throttle wide oipen all the way thru second gear with complete confidence on the street. No. They know they can't stop, so they hold back on the throttle. The G.N has the same brakes as an S10. Pads, shoes, calipers, etc. The difference is the S10 has the same vacuum booster as a stock Regal. The G.N is a heavy and fast car (maybe a 1000 lbs more than an S10?), and at 100 mph, S10 brakes are not much to stake your life on. The S10 has more stopping power than the G.N! Why? The S10 has enough vacuum to operate the vacuum booster! During the gas shortage of the 80's, horsepower was already a thing of the past. The G.N. was G.M's last harrah as far as performance was concerned. They downsized everything they could on that car. The G.N owners are always trying to put more horsepower back in the car, without putting in an equal, or better, amount of brake horsepower. The hydroboost has the performance to match the car, and will deliver the pressure to any combination of calipers you can fit to the car. It has enough pressure, (with no vacuum) to expand the calipers.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Impossible you say? The hydroboost stops the car much quicker, which reduces rotor heat.The hydroboost allows the turbo to spoll up 22lbs of boost with your foot on the brake. With the Hydrobost, you can haul the car down from high speeds, safely. Someone recommended other rotors to make up for the lost pressure from a vacuum booster conversion. Exactly. Lost pressure. Pressure is what stops the car. If the car will not stop when the rotors are cold, then what good does it do to drill holes in the rotors? All disc brakes require double the pressure (over 1200psi) to operate effectively. The vacuum booster needs vacuum, and the turbo charged 231ci. G.N. has very little. Without vacuum, the vacuum booster only puts out 500-850 psi, depending on how hard you can push. Power brake units have a control valve that opens with your foot on the brake pedal. Opening the control valve allows the booster to apply the brakes. The booster applys the pressure, not your leg muscle. If there is no vacuum to pull on the diaphragms. there is no booster. You are building brake pressure with your leg muscle. There is no "magic" disc pad. It just comes down to pressure. Installing larger wheel cyls raises the pressure against the brake shoes. Installing larger caliper pistons raises the pressure against the pads. It is Line pressure (psi) multiplied by the square inches of surface area of the piston. Most of the street rod guys have more horsepower than they have brakes, Can they hold the throttle wide oipen all the way thru second gear with complete confidence on the street. No. They know they can't stop, so they hold back on the throttle. The G.N has the same brakes as an S10. Pads, shoes, calipers, etc. The difference is the S10 has the same vacuum booster as a stock Regal. The G.N is a heavy and fast car (maybe a 1000 lbs more than an S10?), and at 100 mph, S10 brakes are not much to stake your life on. The S10 has more stopping power than the G.N! Why? The S10 has enough vacuum to operate the vacuum booster! During the gas shortage of the 80's, horsepower was already a thing of the past. The G.N. was G.M's last harrah as far as performance was concerned. They downsized everything they could on that car. The G.N owners are always trying to put more horsepower back in the car, without putting in an equal, or better, amount of brake horsepower. The hydroboost has the performance to match the car, and will deliver the pressure to any combination of calipers you can fit to the car. It has enough pressure, (with no vacuum) to expand the calipers.
scojack_2001
Livin' Like A Refugee
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Interesting. Im helping my buddy figure out the brakes on his hybrid Firebird. Its got a built engine putting ALOt to the tires. It cant 60' for anything, and pushes through the lights. Has AeroSpace Components dual calipers on each rear wheel... still wont hold. Car held 20in./HG vacuum at idle. ABS is gone, so along with it the factory prop. valve. We'll probably have to replumb the whole brake line setup. The factory master cylinder was also changed out. This new on is 1 1/4" long than the original, resulting in a VERY soft pedal. With the dual calipers out back, we doubled the fluid required along with the pressure to hold them; if that made any sense. We can probably make it work with another large bore, short travel, high capacity/volume master cylinder. Anyone know where I/we could find a factory GM adjustable 3-port prop valve?? I know they were made, and a part # would help GREATLY...
But my question is, how much RPM will the HydroBoost pump withstand?? This engine has a redline of 6500rpm..
Thanks.
On my Monte SS I used 98-02 S10 Blazer 2WD front spindles/knuckes (direct bolt on to G body cars). These knuckles use a slip on style rotor & 2 piston calipers. So I made my own bracket to adapt the Corvette 13" 2 piston calipers to the knuckle & mounted them along with 13"x1.25 rotors. No machining to the knuckle is needed. Have not driven it yet, but if they are good on the Vette, gotta be a ton better than the stock G body brakes.
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
Hydroboost Conversion
Smaller piston sizes increase pressure, but travel farther. Larger pistons push out more fluid volume, but are harder to push. The hydroboost can push master piston sizes up to 1 5/8". Usually a 1 1/8th piston covers everything except Baer (Corvette) calipers. They work best with 1" masters. The stock G.N's had overdrives and F.I. They ran at 1200-1300 rpm on the highway. The pulley speeds had to be set to run accessories at that speed. 6500 crank speed spins the p/s pump about 10,000rpm (est) Alt speeds are about 4 times crank speed. At 10,000 rpm, the pump vanes can not suck in p/s fluid. and the pump and H/B will lay down. The crank pulley must be reduced in diameter to slow all the accessories down. There is no need to run them at high speeds. The hydroboost will hold that car. You did not say what year the Firebird was, but we have a H/B for it.
Smaller piston sizes increase pressure, but travel farther. Larger pistons push out more fluid volume, but are harder to push. The hydroboost can push master piston sizes up to 1 5/8". Usually a 1 1/8th piston covers everything except Baer (Corvette) calipers. They work best with 1" masters. The stock G.N's had overdrives and F.I. They ran at 1200-1300 rpm on the highway. The pulley speeds had to be set to run accessories at that speed. 6500 crank speed spins the p/s pump about 10,000rpm (est) Alt speeds are about 4 times crank speed. At 10,000 rpm, the pump vanes can not suck in p/s fluid. and the pump and H/B will lay down. The crank pulley must be reduced in diameter to slow all the accessories down. There is no need to run them at high speeds. The hydroboost will hold that car. You did not say what year the Firebird was, but we have a H/B for it.
V6UnderPressure
The Artist FKA Scott4DMny
- Joined
- May 27, 2001
I sent you an email requesting price etc. Just wondering if you received it. I'd like to do this conversion asap while I am under the hood.
chasmat2316
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2006
Back to the original topic, what would be the best ft brake setup for a low 10 sec street driven GN still using the powermaster? thanx!
scojack_2001
Livin' Like A Refugee
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Sending PM.
Danster,
I tried the SSBC set #181, calipers and pads only, with new stock replacement rotors . IMO, they are no improvement over stock. On a street road test, a panic stop yeilded rear lockup w S10 cyls and 28X10 M-T SLICKS installed. The front stock size tires would not lock up.The slight weight loss is not worth it. And braided lines did not improve the pedal feel. Just my opinion.
Jim
I tried the SSBC set #181, calipers and pads only, with new stock replacement rotors . IMO, they are no improvement over stock. On a street road test, a panic stop yeilded rear lockup w S10 cyls and 28X10 M-T SLICKS installed. The front stock size tires would not lock up.The slight weight loss is not worth it. And braided lines did not improve the pedal feel. Just my opinion.
Jim
chasmat2316
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2006
I run 15x4 ft rims so most brakes should clear, what's the best up grade?
