Why hot rod a perfect factory GN?

[PHINFAN]

Actually the HP numbers were advertised lower because GM wanted the Corvette to look better. It was obviously a better selling car.

As far as I know this is incorrect. My info comes from an original article on a GN in Car and Driver, back in 86. I am not sure if many of you are familiar with this article, but they brought up the fact that its performance did not match its factory hp numbers.

They estimated that their test car was producing 300 hp, one of the factors was that they were testing in very cold temperatures which would make up "some" of the 65 hp difference between the 1986 factory rating of 235 hp, and the 300 they thought it had. As far as they could tell, their test car had not been messed with so they left it at: "write us if you know".

About two months later a letter appeared in their letters section, and they said they had heard from a source in GM's engine dept, that said he had witnessed the engines (no difference from 86 to 87) turning 285 hp with mufflers. He stated Turbo Hydramatic rated their Th 200-4r's capacity @ 250 hp, so they rated it at 235 (5 more than the vette that year) so they could at least put it in the car.

It is all in Car and Driver, see for yourself.

 

["Turbo-T"]

Well Ken I'm sort of confused here, it seems you're asking several questions at once.

Some people want the real deal, not fakes, so they go for the real deal GN's. Then others don't care if their car is a fake so they buy Grand Ma's Regal and clone it. Same thing with SS Chevy cars....some want to real Mc Coy, while more often than not others clone theirs. Makes you want to ask them the same thing don't it?

Yeah you could take grandma's regal and V8 it and have an awesome car for less. But then again some see it as "just another car". Plus V8's while nice engines are common as dirt. To see a V6 that can hang with the best of them is something different. Not to mention the turbo 3.8 gives you the best of both worlds...speed and economy....provided you keep your foot out of it.

Mentioning "small block" and "Buick" is a sin to some here. Of course I'm a Chevy guy myself as much as I am a Buick guy and I know GM did it at the factory starting in '77 so it's not so much a sin in my book...unless of course you take a real GN/T type and put in a Chevy engine...but if given the chance I'd most likey keep a Buick drive train in a Buick car.

There's an old saying with cars..."you never get out of them what you put in"....and "it's worth what someone is willing to pay"....so why are original GN's selling for more than modifed ones? Well, I think it has to do with the buyers of the original ones want them for collector cars. They want to own a time capsule of 1985-86-87. So they pay more. Just like an all original 1970 LS6 Chevelle that's original down to the battery and spark plug wires will bring more than a clone or one that's had an engine swap, trans swap, etc.

So why not leave well enough alone? Good question. I guess because it's a hobby to us that never has an end. In fact for some when they get done doing everything and anything they can to it, they turn around and sell, lose some of their investment....just to go buy another car and do it all over again. Which I will agree is silly but hey to each his own.

 

[Junior Samples]

I think were beating this horse.

Ronnne pretty much summed it up, I think the Gentleman was tossing out a hypothosis.

example: why do we do what we do?...lol the value of a stock low mile car can be worth more however I would frown on buying one with stock chip and no means to monitor knock.

So with that being said I would advise the gentleman who started this post to invest into atleast a...

1. fuel pump
2. hotwire
3. adj fuel pressure
4. scanmaster

and call it preventative maintanance

 

[Ssg Ken]

Mentioning "small block" and "Buick" is a sin to some here.

I repent and will sin no more.

I think were beating this horse.

Ronnne pretty much summed it up, I think the Gentleman was tossing out a hypothesis.

example: why do we do what we do?...lol the value of a stock low mile car can be worth more however I would frown on buying one with stock chip and no means to monitor knock.

So with that being said I would advise the gentleman who started this post to invest into at least a...

1. fuel pump
2. hotwire
3. adj fuel pressure
4. scanmaster

and call it preventative maintenance

I drove my first GN into the salty ground of Wisconsin with everything that came from the factory. No EPA chip recall chip in 1988. It was running well when I hit a tree due to black ice.

What will the above items prevent?

Again, thanks one and all for the many answers. Just because I did not change mine in 1987, does not mean I would not have changed it if I was 21 in 1987.

 

[bmackinnon]

In rural Tallapoosa county....QUOTE]

Where in 'Bama are you??? Is that the B'ham area?? Quite a few TR people here in N. Alabama.... :smile:

 

[bmackinnon]

So with that being said I would advise the gentleman who started this post to invest into atleast a...

1. fuel pump
2. hotwire
3. adj fuel pressure
4. scanmaster

and call it preventative maintanance

...and modern chip... The factory fuel system was BARELY adequate when fresh and new in terms of it's capability to deliver the required fuel to prevent a lean condition in a bone stock TR. The above mentioned PM items will simply ensure that the fuel system is up to the task of adequate delivery.... the scanmaster will enable you to monitor the condition/tune of the engine, again, to ensure a lean condition does not exist.... as well as moniter the state of all the other engine management electronics/sensors. A lean condition in these cars is CERTAIN disaster (blown headgaskets or worse...) and is to be avoided at all costs. The modern chip will improve the car's running manners an UNBELIEVABLE amount.... cold start, idle, throttle tip-in, wot performance, temperature control, fuel economy..... the list goes on.... Modern advancements and chip makers who have mastered the factory engine management system for perfected tuning parameters makes these cars run like a new lexus.... well.... almost.... New chip from Turbotweak ($85) is worth it's weight in gold.... literally.... and is also obviously an easily reversable (< 5 minutes) change for stock-sake down the road....

 

[Ssg Ken]

In rural Tallapoosa county....QUOTE]

Where in 'Bama are you??? Is that the B'ham area?? Quite a few TR people here in N. Alabama.... :smile:

Birmingham? I am shocked to hear a GN runs there. I thought the air was too dirty for a turbo.

Really, Bir'ham is not as dirty as it once was. Old joke.

I live about 35 miles west of Auburn. Auburn has a oyster bar restaurant and the owner is opening a oyster bar on my main road. One of the cars in their lot is a GN of about 1985 or so.

 

[charlief1]

An example for you

Yes we love our cars but I'll give you another example. Many years ago I got in to compeditive long range shooting. I decided to build a rifle to shoot 1000 meters. I chose my cartridge carefully and then looked at all the actions that were out there so I could find one that would be stiff enough to do the job. I looked at all of them and my buget and I decided it would be a P17 Enfield action. It had to be trued, lapped, and compleatly redone to make it do what I wanted but I had the action refitted with a Shillen barrel to make sure it would hit where I needed it to. The stock had to fit in the required regs so I used a laminated custom that was fully bedded and the barrel was free floated after the chamber to cut down on vibration. I lapped the barrel just a little more to smooth it out for less friction and smoother bullet travel. I looked at triggers and decided to use a Dayton Traiser and **** on opening kit but the trigger was taken apart and honed to get a .5 lb pull. It did a great job and will shoot .28 MOA but I know it can do better. I have about 12K invested in it and I've been pricing stocks and barrels to see if I can wring out that last little bit and get it below .2 MOA. Sometimes you just get something under your skin and you have to do it.

 

[notacarlo]

As far as I know this is incorrect. My info comes from an original article on a GN in Car and Driver, back in 86. I am not sure if many of you are familiar with this article, but they brought up the fact that its performance did not match its factory hp numbers.

They estimated that their test car was producing 300 hp, one of the factors was that they were testing in very cold temperatures which would make up "some" of the 65 hp difference between the 1986 factory rating of 235 hp, and the 300 they thought it had. As far as they could tell, their test car had not been messed with so they left it at: "write us if you know".

About two months later a letter appeared in their letters section, and they said they had heard from a source in GM's engine dept, that said he had witnessed the engines (no difference from 86 to 87) turning 285 hp with mufflers. He stated Turbo Hydramatic rated their Th 200-4r's capacity @ 250 hp, so they rated it at 235 (5 more than the vette that year) so they could at least put it in the car.

It is all in Car and Driver, see for yourself.

It a widely known "no-no" to have advertised horsepower that rivals or surpasses the Vette. This IS the reason that the ALL of the TR's were 245, with the exception of the X at 276.

 

[notacarlo]

and.....C&D is not what I would call a good source for anything car related. Using stripped down cars without air cleaners to run tests is CHEATING/misinformation.

The best source for information related to the TR is in this community....period.

 

[Ssg Ken]

1000 meter shooting, the big time

Yes we love our cars but I'll give you another example. Many years ago I got in to competitive long range shooting. I decided to build a rifle to shoot 1000 meters. I chose my cartridge carefully and then looked at all the actions that were out there so I could find one that would be stiff enough to do the job. I looked at all of them and my budget and I decided it would be a P17 Enfield action. It had to be trued, lapped, and completely redone to make it do what I wanted but I had the action refitted with a Shillen barrel to make sure it would hit where I needed it to. The stock had to fit in the required regs so I used a laminated custom that was fully bedded and the barrel was free floated after the chamber to cut down on vibration. I lapped the barrel just a little more to smooth it out for less friction and smoother bullet travel. I looked at triggers and decided to use a Dayton Traiser and **** on opening kit but the trigger was taken apart and honed to get a .5 lb pull. It did a great job and will shoot .28 MOA but I know it can do better. I have about 12K invested in it and I've been pricing stocks and barrels to see if I can wring out that last little bit and get it below .2 MOA. Sometimes you just get something under your skin and you have to do it.

Lets see; its not Camp Perry because your cartridge would not be a current military and the .308 does not need an action that long. Its not unlimited because you have to keep in some kind of regs. Its not iron silhouette because they do not go out to that range and sub three inch groups are not needed. I'm going to guess you picked some kind of .338 with a .378 Weatherby as the parent cartridge. You are shooting against others on a paper target where the 10X ring is no more than six inches or you would not need so accurate a rifle.

I give up. I have not shot that much big bore. What cartridge were you shooting and what sport is it called? If you are shooting that much powder, how long does a barrel last?

 

[meanchicken]

Most of the mods that we do to these cars to get them into the 11's are bolt on's that are very simple to reverse in a weekend if we ever wanted to return to stock.

Once it comes to roll caging and actually modifying the chassis or cutting sheet metal, I agree that it's best to find a T-type to play with, or even a stock Regal and do a conversion on it and then modify that until it's so fast it makes your nose bleed.

...but to each his own.

My GN was an all stock original when I bought it, and everything I've done to it is easy to reverse if need be.

I used the same logic on my 68 Camaro. When I bought it 8+ years ago, I knew I wanted a car I could modify without remorse, so I found a non-original SS and went for it. There was really no way for me to verify it was a true SS so I paid non-SS price, got it home and well...see my sig for the rest of that story.

 

[Red C5]

With this in mind, if a person wants a fast GN looking car, why not just buy a nice Regal and a 370hp+ crate motor? With OD, add a 4.56 rear end if you want a drag/street car or Maybe find GN wheels, hood, trim etc. if you want the look.

Because after you dump all that time and money to build something that looks like a GN, you still don't have a GN. :biggrin:

 

[charlief1]

Lets see; its not Camp Perry because your cartridge would not be a current military and the .308 does not need an action that long. Its not unlimited because you have to keep in some kind of regs. Its not iron silhouette because they do not go out to that range and sub three inch groups are not needed. I'm going to guess you picked some kind of .338 with a .378 Weatherby as the parent cartridge. You are shooting against others on a paper target where the 10X ring is no more than six inches or you would not need so accurate a rifle.

I give up. I have not shot that much big bore. What cartridge were you shooting and what sport is it called? If you are shooting that much powder, how long does a barrel last?

.338 lupa is current military cartridge but I actually used one of the winningest (I know, bad word) cartridges. There are 2 cartridges that have the most world records. Any idea Ken? I was setting it up for Wiliamsport. Civilian comp on paper and we used to play golf with our guns for fun. Take a driver, hit the ball as far as you can and then drive it from there with a rifle. That was my practice for fun. Try it sometime and see how frustrated you get. I wanted as much metal around the cartridge as I could get so that there was NO flex and a flat bottom reciever for better bedding. That left me with very few options and If I wanted to rechamber to a larger cartridge I had all the room I wanted. I prefer a Mauser type action for the claw extractor and haven't finished my .458 Lott yet. It's a P14 that's a PITA to build. Still have some work on the box and trigger guard to fit the cartridge and it has a 6 round capacity with one in the chamber. One day I want to go for the big three in Africa but the rifle will have to be built first. I'm pushing a 220 grain bullet at a decent speed and I was planning to go to a 1:7.5" twist for better stabilization of the heavy slug I currently have a 1:9.5" twist and need a little better twist to get what I want out of it. Any idea yet? If you want I have a pic posted in http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/political-views/165089-my-new-evil-rifle.html. Should be on the last page if I remember right. I named her Baby.

 

[Ssg Ken]

The chicken made methink....

Most of the mods that we do to these cars to get them into the 11's are bolt on's that are very simple to reverse in a weekend if we ever wanted to return to stock.

Once it comes to roll caging and actually modifying the chassis or cutting sheet metal, I agree that it's best to find a T-type to play with, or even a stock Regal and do a conversion on it and then modify that until it's so fast it makes your nose bleed.

...but to each his own.

My GN was an all stock original when I bought it, and everything I've done to it is easy to reverse if need be.

I used the same logic on my 68 Camaro. When I bought it 8+ years ago, I knew I wanted a car I could modify without remorse, so I found a non-original SS and went for it. There was really no way for me to verify it was a true SS so I paid non-SS price, got it home and well...see my sig for the rest of that story.

If someone is selling on ebay, then why not remove the hot stuff, replace with the saved factory stuff and sell it as bone stock? They could then sell the parts for whatever they get as gravy. But what I have seen lately is the cars with $10,000 in extra stuff go for $12,000 and stock go for $16000 and up.

ANSWER: They believe that their choices are so obviously great improvements to the GN everyone will pay extra for the add on parts. Also, they are lazy. I have been watching for a year or so now, and I only have a GN because I said to myself "No one is going to steal that car for $16,000." and I bid $100 over and got it.

 

[meanchicken]

If someone is selling on ebay, then why not remove the hot stuff, replace with the saved factory stuff and sell it as bone stock? They could then sell the parts for whatever they get as gravy. But what I have seen lately is the cars with $10,000 in extra stuff go for $12,000 and stock go for $16000 and up.

ANSWER: They believe that their choices are so obviously great improvements to the GN everyone will pay extra for the add on parts. Also, they are lazy. I have been watching for a year or so now, and I only have a GN because I said to myself "No one is going to steal that car for $16,000." and I bid $100 over and got it.

I only paid $6K for mine back in Oct 07.
2nd owner...he owned it for 16 years and babied it, but didn't really maintain it well for the last couple years. 96K miles, all original. Interior is near perfect, the paint needs work, body is straight. Highly optioned. I saw similar condition cars going for $10-12K at the time.

I agree with your point.
If you're gonna sell a GN that has a bunch of bolt-on mods, then take off all the bolt-ons and make it as near original as you can if you kept the parts you removed (I have) and sell it for max $. Keep the goodies for another turbo Buick or sell them seperately.:biggrin:

A buddy of mine bought a slightly modded GN after I bought mine. He paid $6700, spent another $1K returning it to stock, and then sold it for $12K and e-bayed the extra's for some more change.

 

["Turbo-T"]

Then again here's another logic....take me for example....when I bought my car it had been repainted (not all that great IMO), the interior redone (could use a little make over), the exhaust rigged together, the wiring in the dash hacked on....so it's no virgin by any means....so now I'm going to focus on making it faster, but not really feel bad. I don't plan on any major surgery like tubbing or caging, but I am going to continue to tweak it to my likings. Maybe one day when I retire I'll disassemble the whole car, put it on a rotisserie and give it a full body off resto, even then when I do that I'll probably modify it some more by putting on rear disc brakes and redo the whole suspension to make the car handle like it's on rails. Now if this were a pristine car that had never been modded and was in mint shape, I'd have a different approach. I'd keep it as stock as possible.

 

[Ssg Ken]

I never considered that a GN could be so cheap

I only paid $6K for mine back in Oct 07.

I have just been looking at very low mileage cars. If I had looked for yours and found it, I might have never posted this thread. Clearly if a real GN can be had for $6000, it is a far better deal than my first proposal of making a hot rod out of parts and never getting a beefy rear end without a swap.

You got a great deal. The price is a third of new and closely tracks what I did as a kid of buying a 1960 Pontiac for $600 rather than pay the $2400 for a new one.

 

[Junior Samples]

Shouldnt this be in the lounge? this thread is not worth as much in terms of value in this section and for some the knowledge brought forth here might be better served if it were in the lounge section where it might command top dollar in a section where one could comptemplate the full value over a nice hot cup of coffee

 

[darkred87T]

This thread was intended to question why people, men usually, pour money down rat holes like boats, classic cars, (insert your poison here) and not leave well enough alone.

Can't answer that. :redface: I bought my 87T bone stock and beat into the ground for $800. This was after seeing the potential these's car had from watching my brother race his Grand National. I wasn't thinking about value I just wanted to go fast cheap.

Well, Iv'e since dumped thousands$$ into it and I'm still not happy witht the way it runs. I can tell you this (and I know it was just a number thrown out but you can't take it back now ), with only 370HP, your'e gonna wish you had a modded GN.