1987 pro-touring grand national, from the ground up
- Thread starter dsapper
- Start date
THE BLACK MAMBA
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2007
I`m running 275 fronts and 285 rear Toyo tires....going to switch to BFgoodrich KDW2 soon.....Your car looks amazing...Thanks for posting your build...
If you are going to be running track days with the car I'm interested in what you've found regarding cooling and oiling.
On cooling: Do you plan to run a differential cooler? What type of trans cooler are you going to use? High power at sustained RPMs = HEAT!!
On oiling: what is known about how well these motors do with oiling under high g load? Does the factory wet sump work well enough (on sticky tires) or is a dry sump needed?
I run track days with my C6 vette and am really intrigued about building a similar TR (even if it's not beautiful like yours) for track days. My experience with the C6, though, suggests that conventional wisdom for drag racing doesn't necessarily hold for track days, where sessions are longer than 10 seconds and RPMs stay high.
And thanks for this thread!
On cooling: Do you plan to run a differential cooler? What type of trans cooler are you going to use? High power at sustained RPMs = HEAT!!
On oiling: what is known about how well these motors do with oiling under high g load? Does the factory wet sump work well enough (on sticky tires) or is a dry sump needed?
I run track days with my C6 vette and am really intrigued about building a similar TR (even if it's not beautiful like yours) for track days. My experience with the C6, though, suggests that conventional wisdom for drag racing doesn't necessarily hold for track days, where sessions are longer than 10 seconds and RPMs stay high.
And thanks for this thread!
novaderrik
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2004
this is one of the things that are easily investigated at a junkyard..
It would work but the bracket would have to be refabbed. Fay's makes a weld in bracket that I wasnt aware of when I ordered the bolt in that would be easier to modify
I had a C6 I tracked as well, small world
Cooling, no diff cooler. I'm not going to be going for multi hour runs so I dont really see a need. I'm using the built in trans cooler with the radiator, if the temp moves up Ill get a dedicated one. The cool thing is the tranny has all the monitoring set up in the computer so it will be easy to check. I also installed a high capacity cast aluminum TCI trans cooler to help out. The car has ceramic coated exhaust from the block through the turbo and out the tips, even the cat back is ceramic coated. A nice aluminum alternator with dual fans, high flow water pump and 160 degree thermostat. Besides that I'm venting the two inner headlights, gnx vents, vents on the back of the cowl (if I can make them look nice) and am considering tta vents if I can actually find a good set for sale. I'm also considering ducting the two air dams to brake vents if needed.
As for oiling, I have the high flow oil pump mod aka earl brown, mod done. I installed the RJC bigger oil pan. I'm also using the biggie adapter with a massive oil filter used more for semi's lol. I also have the new oil cooler for that as well. Wet sump is fine, never needed it before.
One thing I learned while driving the C6 is the only thing you really need on those cars to track well is good tires, if you have R compound tires on a bone stock C6 its capabilities are above most people. The buick is a bit different, I'm hoping with these mods to make is close but its more for fun than anything. Comparing even a modified grand national to a stock C6 on a track is a tall order. I'm hoping the suspension changes I did can get me close to 1g on a skid pad. If I can't get there I'm not sure what would on one of these cars short of a custom designed chassis from scratch
Cooling, no diff cooler. I'm not going to be going for multi hour runs so I dont really see a need. I'm using the built in trans cooler with the radiator, if the temp moves up Ill get a dedicated one. The cool thing is the tranny has all the monitoring set up in the computer so it will be easy to check. I also installed a high capacity cast aluminum TCI trans cooler to help out. The car has ceramic coated exhaust from the block through the turbo and out the tips, even the cat back is ceramic coated. A nice aluminum alternator with dual fans, high flow water pump and 160 degree thermostat. Besides that I'm venting the two inner headlights, gnx vents, vents on the back of the cowl (if I can make them look nice) and am considering tta vents if I can actually find a good set for sale. I'm also considering ducting the two air dams to brake vents if needed.
As for oiling, I have the high flow oil pump mod aka earl brown, mod done. I installed the RJC bigger oil pan. I'm also using the biggie adapter with a massive oil filter used more for semi's lol. I also have the new oil cooler for that as well. Wet sump is fine, never needed it before.
One thing I learned while driving the C6 is the only thing you really need on those cars to track well is good tires, if you have R compound tires on a bone stock C6 its capabilities are above most people. The buick is a bit different, I'm hoping with these mods to make is close but its more for fun than anything. Comparing even a modified grand national to a stock C6 on a track is a tall order. I'm hoping the suspension changes I did can get me close to 1g on a skid pad. If I can't get there I'm not sure what would on one of these cars short of a custom designed chassis from scratch
Pittsburghkid
Displacement Replacement.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
Where did you find such a thing? And do you have a pic as I'd like to see this.
Lol sorry. Radiator. My alternator is of the crappy single fan variety
. good news though I found two intact tta hood vents with screens and they are on the wayturbofabricator
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
Did you verify pick-up placement with the RJC oil pan? There are issues with the pick up placement with the RJc deep sump pan. Probably needs a directional screen, too, for sustained RPM and high G-load turns. Oil will uncover the pick up if not controlled in a precision manner. The RJC (and stock) pan NEEDS a front baffle, too. Under high braking G-loads the sump will empty in a hurry. I weld in a front baffle (at a minimum) and fab a new pick-up to put the screen where it NEEDS to be. In your application the oil cooler should be retained, if not improved. Drag racing.....I leave 'em off. Just my experiences after building these engines for 20+ years.
turbofabricator
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
Looked fine or actually measured fine? This simple deal can cost you your engine. Road course racing puts alot more demand on oil control than meets the eye. You've put alot of work in your car and I'd hate to read about a spun bearing from high G turns/braking. I would suggest pulling the pan and adding a front baffle (at a minimum. Your shop can tack weld it in in just a few miuntes) and verify that the pick-up screen is .275"- .375" from the bottom of the pan. (also use a cork gasket with a layer of the "Right Stuff" on both sides for a no leak install.)
The cork gasket is already there with the sealant and the pick-up screen measurement was verified at the time of install. I'm honestly not to worried about it, plenty of people here road race with considerably less protection than I have already built into it. I'm sure you have insane amounts of experience but this isn't my first rodeo either.
I've mentioned multiple times that this is a street car that will see some road course time, no different than the guys with daily drivers that hit the 1/4 mile ever month or two. I truly do appreciate your wealth of experience but you are aimed more at the 1/4 mile. Honestly if I was going to road race this as much as I did my C6 there would be a pre oiler, maybe a dry sump and a less capable oil cooler (Canton racing told me to aim for 212-215 oil temp's on extended runs to get rid of condensation which actually required me to get a smaller oil cooler to maintain)
Your point probably has some validity with the baffle, I honestly didn't look at the inside of the pan, but its a situation that will rarely arise. Plus I'm already committed to a turbo LS or TA block if things go south with the stock short block lol.
I've mentioned multiple times that this is a street car that will see some road course time, no different than the guys with daily drivers that hit the 1/4 mile ever month or two. I truly do appreciate your wealth of experience but you are aimed more at the 1/4 mile. Honestly if I was going to road race this as much as I did my C6 there would be a pre oiler, maybe a dry sump and a less capable oil cooler (Canton racing told me to aim for 212-215 oil temp's on extended runs to get rid of condensation which actually required me to get a smaller oil cooler to maintain)
Your point probably has some validity with the baffle, I honestly didn't look at the inside of the pan, but its a situation that will rarely arise. Plus I'm already committed to a turbo LS or TA block if things go south with the stock short block lol.
This type of stuff that you only learn by "experimenting" in real world conditions and is what scares me most about building a turbo regal track car. And I've given real thought to it. This community (and good builders) knows how to build incredibly fast drag cars, what will break under what circumstances and why. Many also know how to build amazing handling cars. But real track days (I'm talking just 15-20 minute sessions, not hours), put different demands on the car. An amazing handling car, for example, won't necessarily survive under hard driving on track. You can get there, but it's trial and error, just like in the early days of making our cars go fast on the strip. And not many have gone your path before.
Take my C6-- the big road racing community around this car now knows that the wet sumped LS3 will grenade if run on sticky tires and with left hand turns at 1.2 Gs (bad head design, among other things). GM addressed this with a factory dry sump in Grand Sport model after a year or two, but lots of folks (including national SCCA champs) found out the hard way. I've been able to benefit by lots of experimentation from other people, but if I hadn't I would have bought Hoosiers and all but certainly smoked my motor. And that's a car built for track days.
Just food for tought-- you're doing an awesome build and going beyond 100% quality in so many areas. As the poster above notes (and I have no experience with the specifics he's talking about), oiling is an expensive and frustrating one to experiment with.
Again, thanks for the awesome thread. Lots of folks will be enjoying and learning from what you're building!
My oil consumption went up exponentially during this full season of auto-x using a basically stock oiling system with nothing other than a HV/HP pump with a booster plate. There is nothing for oil control in these cars from the factory, and once you start messing with the PCV system it gets even worse when you are beating on the car for minutes, not seconds.
If I liked the LC2 in my Buick I would probably pay more attention to oil modifications and mitigation methods... but, I don't - so it can die a glorious death for all I care.
For now just run an extra 500-1000mL of oil when you do track it to keep the pick-up from being exposed under lateral Gs and hard braking.
If I liked the LC2 in my Buick I would probably pay more attention to oil modifications and mitigation methods... but, I don't - so it can die a glorious death for all I care.
For now just run an extra 500-1000mL of oil when you do track it to keep the pick-up from being exposed under lateral Gs and hard braking.
ITS ALIVE!!!!! So Scott and the shop spent all day yesterday wiring, and wiring, and more wiring. Today I swung by at the 11th hour just in time to turn the key the first time, and well... I'll let you see the rest in the video
And some various pictures of the engine finally being put together, notice the awesome fessler battery tray. There is alot of wire routing and hiding after this
And some various pictures of the engine finally being put together, notice the awesome fessler battery tray. There is alot of wire routing and hiding after this
84BuickGNYorkPA
Daily Driving Buick V-6 Turbo's 1979 - Present
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2005
Nothing like the sound of the 1st start up !!!
Congratulations!
Chuck
Congratulations!
Chuck
novaderrik
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2004
opening up the two inner headlights will do nothing to help with cooling once the car is moving- in fact, it may hurt it a bit.. you want to get the air pressure in the engine bay side of the radiator as low as possible to help air flow thru it, but the open headlight holes will just add air pressure in the engine bay. it will also add more aero drag and front end lift to the car at higher speeds due to the extra air that you are dragging around under the hood.
if you want better cooling and a little help with the aero on the car, then hood and fender vents are the way to go.. the Lumina Z34 hood vents look good on a G body and actually work according to that one guy that runs his GP 2+2 in top speed events.
if you want better cooling and a little help with the aero on the car, then hood and fender vents are the way to go.. the Lumina Z34 hood vents look good on a G body and actually work according to that one guy that runs his GP 2+2 in top speed events.
