Another HA intake cut-open and flowed

[Squid4life]

I am years past being hot air now, but if this info would have been around way back then, I'd probably still be beating on a hot air car. This is great info, and interesting even if not running HA. This experiment took lots of lots of time and documentation so I applaud and appreciate the effort, even if I am not able to use it. Good stuff!

 

[charlief1]

What you may not realize is Jerryl is an engineer so he tries to define what he knows. It's one of the faults of the engineer. My dad was the same way and we butted heads more than once because of it. Jerryl's not trying to be difficult but he's trying to understand it.

One thing I can point out here from running NA's for a long time is the volume of the intake again. If you've got a tunnel ram with a 1000 CFM carb on it (square bore) you will get better performance out of it at higher RPM's, but the bottom will be crappy. Now if you take the same intake and run a spread bore type carb you get better bottom end because the velocity of the air fuel mix is higher so cylinder charging is better at low RPM. With a gutted intake you run into the same issue. If the turbo is one that has a higher than stock capacity then you have to compensate by going with a diferent cam and a higer stall converter. I know you guys may not believe this but it's true in the way it works.

 

[SloGN]

What you may not realize is Jerryl is an engineer so he tries to define what he knows. It's one of the faults of the engineer. My dad was the same way and we butted heads more than once because of it. Jerryl's not trying to be difficult but he's trying to understand it.

One thing I can point out here from running NA's for a long time is the volume of the intake again. If you've got a tunnel ram with a 1000 CFM carb on it (square bore) you will get better performance out of it at higher RPM's, but the bottom will be crappy. Now if you take the same intake and run a spread bore type carb you get better bottom end because the velocity of the air fuel mix is higher so cylinder charging is better at low RPM. With a gutted intake you run into the same issue. If the turbo is one that has a higher than stock capacity then you have to compensate by going with a diferent cam and a higer stall converter. I know you guys may not believe this but it's true in the way it works.

well it's time for him to do some research of his own so he can infact see whats really going on for his standpoint. It's time for him to put the pencil down and get his hands greasy so he can see the differences in the two.

Again i'm not discrediting the guy he's a sharp guy and thats what bothers me as to why he can't understand what i did and the results that i got.


No if a guy is running a stock turbo he don't need a gutted/modded intake as there gains would be so dang small if any. But if one is tring to squeeze out every last horsepower then yes i whole heartedly say a modded intake will help.

look at the flow numbers

if you kept the A/F ratio the same on all the cylinders from low flow to high flow . The highest flowing cylinder will make more power due to it has more air and fuel packed into that cylinder. So why would you not want all the ports to be balanced as close as possible. This makes for smoother power production and more efficient.

It's simply about the flow.



The one thing you can't relate to about the carbed engine with too big of intake and carb is how the fuel is actually being delivered. With fuel injection those issue are reduced alot since the fuel is sprayed behind the valve instead of being drawn all the way thru the intake port. But this is another discussion.


I really should have just kept this info for my own use instead.

 

[charlief1]

LOL You provided some viable info Pat. That's what it's all about. There's a learning curve on the HA cars and it's bigger than the IC cars. We don't have the research that others have and any info is worth it. Jamie has proven that these cars can compete with the IC cars as well as you and Brent, not to mention Lee here. The DTHA cars are just begining to get there so any info on how things can be improved is worth it to help those of us that are "red headed bastard children".

 

[esinger]

Jamie has proven that these cars can compete with the IC cars as well as you and Brent, not to mention Lee here.

Pat, have you been taking off that huge front mount intercooler while I wasn't looking?

As far as engineering types, you should see Pat and Richard Clark argue about something. They agree most of the time, but boy when there's a disagreement...

I know there's a ton of science involved with these cars, however to me it's part art and part science. Somethings just work and somethings don't. There's a scientific reason why they do and don't, however at the hobbyist level (like I believe most of us are), it's not practical to measure every aspect, but instead accept that it just works.

Eric

 

[SloGN]

Charlie

I hope i don't make ya mad in letting you know i don't have a Hot-air . I have been helping Eric on his car over the yrs.

But i by no means take any credit for the achievements he has made with his car. I simply give him advice on things and let him make the final decission on what he does to the car.

 

[esinger]

I simply give him advice on things and let him make the final decission on what he does to the car.

Advice like "Stop this hot air madness and just throw an intercooler on that car" LOL

 

[dr_frankenstein]

shit-can the intake. simple.

weiand intake. drill and add injector bungs.

add the rest of the injection crap that i dont have.

make an adapter plate to fit the turbo to the 4bbl pad. hell, i have two....... somebody can have one.

run giant turbo. no intake restriction. somewhat custom up and down pipe, but i can help.

dont know if it fits regal. but somebody should try.

10s.

 

[BeanSS]

shit-can the intake. simple.

weiand intake. drill and add injector bungs.

add the rest of the injection crap that i dont have.

make an adapter plate to fit the turbo to the 4bbl pad. hell, i have two....... somebody can have one.

run giant turbo. no intake restriction. somewhat custom up and down pipe, but i can help.

dont know if it fits regal. but somebody should try.

10s.

What you mean like this?
http://turbobuick.com/forums/threads/weiand-carb-intake-to-efi-conversion.343161/#post-2762124



Should be getting a call from the Merchant Marines hopefully in a few days....I almost let this car go (like 3 times actually )
Can I have that extra adapter plate?

 

[dr_frankenstein]

What you mean like this?
http://turbobuick.com/forums/threads/weiand-carb-intake-to-efi-conversion.343161/#post-2762124



Should be getting a call from the Merchant Marines hopefully in a few days....I almost let this car go (like 3 times actually )
Can I have that extra adapter plate?

yes like that! just with the turbo up top like stock. charlie always says i dont tell nobody nuthing, so there it is. its working for me and im carb turbo. why cant hot air guys do it just as well. they have the advantage of just running air through it, not a piss hot mixture of air/fuel.

good job man, your ahead of the curve.

as for the adapter, its for putting the turbo up top of the motor, i dunno if you would be interested in that. that pretty elbow you got there would be perfect for an LC2 style system.

 

[BeanSS]

yes like that! just with the turbo up top like stock. charlie always says i dont tell nobody nuthing, so there it is. its working for me and im carb turbo. why cant hot air guys do it just as well. they have the advantage of just running air through it, not a piss hot mixture of air/fuel.

good job man, your ahead of the curve.

as for the adapter, its for putting the turbo up top of the motor, i dunno if you would be interested in that. that pretty elbow you got there would be perfect for an LC2 style system.

Hahaha I got the idea actually from you guys! I kept hearing just how much the stock intake just sucked for Carb and Hot Air guys and how that a Weiand was the business (for Carb motors)...even better an than the Edelebrock one that I kept seeing around (Which I think someone said has fuel sloshing issues?? )....Weren't you the one that had that TBI system? That's when I decided to pull the trigger on it...figured an modified EFI styled intake would be even better than a TBI one....I just ran outta bread before I could get everything done.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Hahaha I got the idea actually from you guys! I kept hearing just how much the stock intake just sucked for Carb and Hot Air guys and how that a Weiand was the business (for Carb motors)...even better an than the Edelebrock one that I kept seeing around (Which I think someone said has fuel sloshing issues?? )....Weren't you the one that had that TBI system? That's when I decided to pull the trigger on it...figured an modified EFI styled intake would be even better than a TBI one....I just ran outta bread before I could get everything done.

the main reason that i stayed away from the edelbrock was for one simple thing. carb incline is made into the manifold. if you use an adapter to mount a turbo up top, it causes the plenum to angle down. Plus.... the edlebrock is significantly taller then the weiand which if hood room is a concern, become a major problem. it wasnt me with the TBI, I had pioneered a side-draft and mechanical injection.

 

[Mike Licht]

have you considered flowing the intake bolted to a cylinder head with the valve open somewhere close to cam lift?

 

[Boost231]

mike, thats what i want to see done. i know richard was coming up with a way to test similar to that.

 

[Mike Licht]

you might see those numbers change quite a bit, I know the 86/87 intake numbers move a bunch when bolted to a head and now you into porting the heads to even them up. I built a flow bench to move enough air to max out mass air sensors when Bob Bailey and I were testing them, Having enough air flow in the bench realy helps with manifolds. Thats one thing that make me laugh a little about guys insisiting that flow matched injectors are going to make or break their combo when the intake and head flows are all over the place.

 

[SloGN]

Mike

I do agree that the true flow thru the intake may change some when the cylinder head is bolted on. But In the case of the hot air intake i don't think the cylinder head port is gonna make it flow better as it's already starved for air. ( in stock form) the killer port is #4

In layman term's if you take a garden hose and hook it up to a fire hose your only gonna get the amount of water that the garden hose can flow no matter the pressure.

BTW the flow benches are superflow 1200's they move the air!

 

[charlief1]

In layman term's if you take a garden hose and hook it up to a fire hose your only gonna get the amount of water that the garden hose can flow no matter the pressure.

 

[Boost231]

ok, so intake data. from what i have seen from real world testing is that even if the intake flows even on the bench something is.going on inside the intake causing flow issues. i could run my car normal driving and pull the plugs after 50 miles and see a huge difference in the color of the plugs. injectors are new and not the issue. i never saw a issue with my gasket ported intake and the flow numbrs where way off.on that one? weird

 

[SloGN]

Brent you need to check the plugs after a hard pull with no idle time . Normal driving is hard to read plugs cause of warm up fueling and other things . Snap some pics of said plugs and post them.

I have not observed any issues on erics engine.

I do however recommend the autolite ar3933 plugs . They have the short ground strap that makes a difference in tuning the engine.

Just ask Eric about the difference a plug type can make.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

I think there was an issue during devlopment of the intake in that the engineers didnt understand dynamic flow under boost. They were still stuck in NA land with there whole dual plane extremly long runner fad. I noticed this after i sectioned a HA intake to compare to a CARB T intake vs a regular 4.1 4BBl intake. The insides are rather comparable in basic design parameters. This is why your seeing such variance in the plugs. air under pressure moving fast enough has inertia, it dont want to turn. When the intake is gutted and ported, it disturbs the ability of the air to make gradual smooth turns, particularly under boost.... I think the gutted intake is a waste of time IMHO.... same would happen to a CARB T intake if gutted.

I bet you stick a carb on the HA intake and it would run pretty damn good. it was made to flow like a carb intake, granted we all understand that it needs to be dry, it would probably be a great street carb intake.

Borrowing tech from other successful "Draw Thru" style systems, we see that the short runner with large plenum is the way to go here. Ideal port shapes combined with PROPER floor design and a mathmatically volume correct plenum would smoke the 86-87 intake right out of the water.