Bad news upon pulling motor today
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Phoneguy
Cometic HG stress tester
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Sorry I forgot to post which cylinder this was. I was pretty pissed when I posted. #2 front passenger side. ALKY could have been a factor but the boost going crazy is where I place the blame. Granted, if I had been running C16 I believe it would have survived.
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I have to disagree
Really sorry your heads got torched. I have been down this road a few times.
You can run the motor on pump gas and alcohol and it works well. The trick is that you have to realize that dual pumps and dual alky injectors are big time overkill. My experience, 3 times blowing head gaskets is no different than yours. I would literally push the gasket right out from too much fuel. Then i would burn it up trying to lean it out. It was driving me nuts.
I finally figured this out after much thinking and talking to Cal Hartline and Razor about this.
You only need one fuel pump running from the tank. Turn the alky knob on 6 and let it go. You should have the alky coming on at 8 psi or so. Dont be afraid of it, the initial hit is very mild. Set the AF tables to 11.0 to 1 on the FAST on the top end. At little to no boost you can lean it out to build boost quickly. You can run 13.5 and set it richer as you scale up rpm and boost.
I had to set the Hobbs switch for the second pump to come on at no lower than 20 psi. I set a target boost level of 18 psi on the street just to be safe. Timing was at no more than 20* on the top end. You have to remember that you are mixing two fuels in all of this. The octane of methanol is 116 and pump gas is 93 or so depending on where you live. The benefit of the meth is that the fuel cools the charge but you do effectively lower EGTs which means you can run more fuel at it.
I made 15 runs before I got it dialed in right but it works like a champ. As a matter of fact I had to shim the ATR gate to get above 18 psi. I got it where I want now and I will get some runs on a track soon with data logs.
Check the Alky section I put up some logs of the process. You will never trim enough pump gas with both pumps running to make it work right. I had the VE map inverted under boost to subtract enough fuel out of the map and it still was not right. I am only running a single nozzle alcohol kit I can only imagine how much the dual nozzle set up will throw at the motor.
Bottom line it does work. There is nothing wrong with using race gas with the car. If you just race the car I can understand why you would do it. Race gas is 7 bucks a gallon ( it might be more now ) but you have all the stuff to make it work right. It really is a matter of tuning it.
I would start at 10 psi, let the gate dump boost on the spring by itself. Set the AF tables as mentioned, set the VE tables to a safe tune you know will be rich, set the timing on 20 on the top end( make damn sure the physical timing is in sync with the FAST unit) and then let the WB subtract fuel from there. Get a baseline that has the fuel on the money and then start to turn up the boost from there.
If you have any questions I can help. You can post a thread in the Alky section and Razor will help you out.
Good luck
Really sorry your heads got torched. I have been down this road a few times.
You can run the motor on pump gas and alcohol and it works well. The trick is that you have to realize that dual pumps and dual alky injectors are big time overkill. My experience, 3 times blowing head gaskets is no different than yours. I would literally push the gasket right out from too much fuel. Then i would burn it up trying to lean it out. It was driving me nuts.
I finally figured this out after much thinking and talking to Cal Hartline and Razor about this.
You only need one fuel pump running from the tank. Turn the alky knob on 6 and let it go. You should have the alky coming on at 8 psi or so. Dont be afraid of it, the initial hit is very mild. Set the AF tables to 11.0 to 1 on the FAST on the top end. At little to no boost you can lean it out to build boost quickly. You can run 13.5 and set it richer as you scale up rpm and boost.
I had to set the Hobbs switch for the second pump to come on at no lower than 20 psi. I set a target boost level of 18 psi on the street just to be safe. Timing was at no more than 20* on the top end. You have to remember that you are mixing two fuels in all of this. The octane of methanol is 116 and pump gas is 93 or so depending on where you live. The benefit of the meth is that the fuel cools the charge but you do effectively lower EGTs which means you can run more fuel at it.
I made 15 runs before I got it dialed in right but it works like a champ. As a matter of fact I had to shim the ATR gate to get above 18 psi. I got it where I want now and I will get some runs on a track soon with data logs.
Check the Alky section I put up some logs of the process. You will never trim enough pump gas with both pumps running to make it work right. I had the VE map inverted under boost to subtract enough fuel out of the map and it still was not right. I am only running a single nozzle alcohol kit I can only imagine how much the dual nozzle set up will throw at the motor.
Bottom line it does work. There is nothing wrong with using race gas with the car. If you just race the car I can understand why you would do it. Race gas is 7 bucks a gallon ( it might be more now ) but you have all the stuff to make it work right. It really is a matter of tuning it.
I would start at 10 psi, let the gate dump boost on the spring by itself. Set the AF tables as mentioned, set the VE tables to a safe tune you know will be rich, set the timing on 20 on the top end( make damn sure the physical timing is in sync with the FAST unit) and then let the WB subtract fuel from there. Get a baseline that has the fuel on the money and then start to turn up the boost from there.
If you have any questions I can help. You can post a thread in the Alky section and Razor will help you out.
Good luck
Damn bryan you have some ****ty luck.
If the alky is progressive kit i would have thought it would have added enough alky to keep the knock away . Or is this failure due to just being stupid lean from the get go thus the melted gasket/block.
If the alky is progressive kit i would have thought it would have added enough alky to keep the knock away . Or is this failure due to just being stupid lean from the get go thus the melted gasket/block.
Phoneguy
Cometic HG stress tester
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- Aug 27, 2002
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- 6,882
Don't remember ambient, IAT is in the back of the plenum, started at 111* and went down to 62*
it's just a six
Member
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- Dec 27, 2005
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- 537
Just a suggestion, maybe get one of these.
J&S Electronics • SafeGuard
It's saved my engine a few times.
My friend is a distributor for them if intersted. His name is Ray, great guy.
Corvair Performance
J&S Electronics • SafeGuard
It's saved my engine a few times.
My friend is a distributor for them if intersted. His name is Ray, great guy.
Corvair Performance
Phoneguy
Cometic HG stress tester
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It did scorch the block, I sent pics to Bobby at RPE, He must not be too concerned, he said make sure you dont let the cylinders rust.
My temps were even lower when it happened. My theory lately is that when the temp is below 70F in the plenum the meth can no longer vaporize, and ends up pre-igniting due to cylinder pressure. Insta blow torch....
I am not using my alky this season, either pump or race gas.
I am not using my alky this season, either pump or race gas.
29.4 means the 3 bar was pegged. It could have been 37 PSI for all you know.
Its like seeing 85 mph on a Buick speedo.
You didnt have a problem at Richards place where the car made a great number. You probably never had it tuned for 30+ psi. The motor went there and booom it went. The problem happened when the boost controller failed. Period.
Those talking BS here about alky.. C16/Q16 would of blown up as well on those boost levels un-tuned. What like TSM cars dont blow up? Or TSO cars dont blow up?? They run C16, Q16.. and stuff happens. Especially when playing on the street and distractions really high.
I feel for ya Bryan.. I hate to see carnage and hardship. If your going to have a racing engine making a lot of power.. you need to be on top of things and have safeties wired in..
If the TEMP went down from 111 to 62.. the meth system was doing its job. But it cant save every imaginable condition that can pop up. Example 37 PSI.
Funny how some of the alky haters know all about being able to weld aluminum heads
Its like seeing 85 mph on a Buick speedo.
You didnt have a problem at Richards place where the car made a great number. You probably never had it tuned for 30+ psi. The motor went there and booom it went. The problem happened when the boost controller failed. Period.
Those talking BS here about alky.. C16/Q16 would of blown up as well on those boost levels un-tuned. What like TSM cars dont blow up? Or TSO cars dont blow up?? They run C16, Q16.. and stuff happens. Especially when playing on the street and distractions really high.
I feel for ya Bryan.. I hate to see carnage and hardship. If your going to have a racing engine making a lot of power.. you need to be on top of things and have safeties wired in..
If the TEMP went down from 111 to 62.. the meth system was doing its job. But it cant save every imaginable condition that can pop up. Example 37 PSI.
Funny how some of the alky haters know all about being able to weld aluminum heads
What's up with all the boost spikes you keep having??? What kind of controllers are you using?
Phoneguy
Cometic HG stress tester
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The boost controller is a Turbonetics billet MBC. As mentioned I will be going with a solenoid controlled by the XFI.
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sorry about your damage , seen it happen before with alums and steel gaskets , have one block at buddies with a nice trench going into #3 valley and have seen holes in alums i could stick my finger in
being pig rich with the wideband pegged at the bottom is not a "safe" tune
and i agree alky didnt blow your motor , poor boost control did without a tune inplace for that boost level ,
if you hit your rev limiter (fuel cutoff ) in the xfi with the alky spraying that can cause damage and lift the head but again the alky wouldnt be the reason it popped, it would be the foault of management system having a fuel cutoff rev limiter
too many could have beens , deck the block , weld the head and move on , but get the boost under control before you go at it again
being pig rich with the wideband pegged at the bottom is not a "safe" tune
and i agree alky didnt blow your motor , poor boost control did without a tune inplace for that boost level ,
if you hit your rev limiter (fuel cutoff ) in the xfi with the alky spraying that can cause damage and lift the head but again the alky wouldnt be the reason it popped, it would be the foault of management system having a fuel cutoff rev limiter
too many could have beens , deck the block , weld the head and move on , but get the boost under control before you go at it again
Wow man that sucks! Sorry to hear... At least it looks fixable! Good luck with repair!
I have to agree with Razor, 3 bar maxed out so no telling where it went. Really can't blame the alky there... According to temps it was doing its job as noted!
Shameless plug, but the ISAC has a KICK AZZ boost controller on it
I have to agree with Razor, 3 bar maxed out so no telling where it went. Really can't blame the alky there... According to temps it was doing its job as noted!
Shameless plug, but the ISAC has a KICK AZZ boost controller on it
Royal-T-Ltd
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were you dry on alky? i had a boost spike.... way back when, when i blew trans and FP line shot off..... ALKY SAVED ME.... the progressive ALKY dumped a TON of ALKY and put the flame out, shut down my engine and it still lives today
aaron
aaron
I guess you are refering to me, since I'm the only one that quoted how much a repair like that may cost? I wasn't hating on running alky in this thread, I learned my lesson on that awhile back when I got a bunch of hate pm's. But just to set the record straight, I've never (knock on wood) blown the hg's in my car or any other race gas car I helped tune. Now the only reason I know what it cost to repair a head because I needed it done on a car I helped on that blew up. I was not responsible for the tune of the ecm or alky on that car. I'm not an alky hater, I've installed 6+ of your kits on cars out of my own garage...in fact did one a few days ago. I think alky is great for your normal street tr , I just have had awesome luck with race gas at the track. I'm not trying to offend your product, its just my opinion, and we all have those so take it as just that.29.4 means the 3 bar was pegged. It could have been 37 PSI for all you know.
Its like seeing 85 mph on a Buick speedo.
You didnt have a problem at Richards place where the car made a great number. You probably never had it tuned for 30+ psi. The motor went there and booom it went. The problem happened when the boost controller failed. Period.
Those talking BS here about alky.. C16/Q16 would of blown up as well on those boost levels un-tuned. What like TSM cars dont blow up? Or TSO cars dont blow up?? They run C16, Q16.. and stuff happens. Especially when playing on the street and distractions really high.
I feel for ya Bryan.. I hate to see carnage and hardship. If your going to have a racing engine making a lot of power.. you need to be on top of things and have safeties wired in..
If the TEMP went down from 111 to 62.. the meth system was doing its job. But it cant save every imaginable condition that can pop up. Example 37 PSI.
Funny how some of the alky haters know all about being able to weld aluminum heads
If you are over 120fwhp per hole and running auxiliary fuel such as alky without a 6 channel egt you are in for some surprises like this unfortunate one. I've done this 3 times myself and it was the front cylinders everytime. Once the car is making enough power to run 140+ there is no room for error. A/f will be fine and no knock yet it will melt cylinders.
you do know about "opinions"
:biggrin:....Back to the thread.. Fix it an move forward.. Don't be like an old fart (like me
) an dwell on it.. Damage is done. I know $$$ doesn't grow on trees.. :redface:Similar threads
