Bad news upon pulling motor today

[Ed Valvo]

I have noticed that when tuning on a dyno that you tune to a livable A/F and the motor is happy and the XFI is showing very very little corrections. Then take the car to the track the same day and have the o2 sensor commanding like 10-15% extra fuel to stay at the same A/F.

I think that tuning a car tothe ragged edge on a dyno and then hitting the street/track is a problem due to the fact the load goes way up due to other forces like wind drag. I may be wrong on my thinking. but this is what i have observed on my car and on a few others. I have noticed this on alky and non alky powered GN's. ( this is really a problem if the needed fuel goes beyond what the ECM can correct to.)

This is consistant with my findings. I learned the hard way.

Ed

 

[Jerryl]

Can you fix an intake:biggrin:

Shane, Try this. LOL!
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/turbo-lounge/192814-alcoholic-twins-turbos.html#post1356130

 

[Razor]

If the intake air temp going over the nozzle is "hot" enough to make the alcohol flash.. then you dont have the issue. Alcohol will flash at 70 DF. If the air going over the nozzle is at least 70 DF.. the alcohol will flash into the air and distribute just like air does.

Example is like brake cleaner hitting a hot rotor.. its gone. If the volume of alcohol is so great that its oversaturating the air.. then we have an issue.

This is why rule of thumb 20-25% of the fueling will get the job done and no issues. Plenty of low 10 sec cars running pump gas and meth no problems. Even some 9 second ones. :wink:

Want to see some XFI logs?

Now.. all this has nothing to do with the damage to the motor Bryan had. He pegged a big turbo due to a faulty boost controller. So all this alky does this/that is hogwash as it pertains to this thread. C16 would not have saved his motor at those boost levels.

If the question is distribution of methanol injection when the fuel displacement/volume starts going past 30-40% displacement.. thats a totally different issue. Then we can start to discuss direct port on that 1200 hp motor.

So if a car with a Buick V6 motor can run in the mid 9's on pump gas and alcohol injection.. that proves the tech works. If it didnt work... then every attempt would be a failure. Its all in the tuning and attention. Dyno's are a tuning aid.. the best advice always comes from those who are methodical about what they're doing and moving in that direction in a slow but sure pace.. I would never set a car on kill on a dyno then expect it to be perfect at the track..

 

[Razor]

Julie, if you look at my post #23 I put the blame on the controller but at this stage of the game I am going to take ALKY out of the equation. You are correct about the 3 bar map being maxed out, I made reference to that in another thread. The XFI can only see what the 3 bar can produce , who knows how high it actually went but in my mind I think it would have fared better on C16, just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Bryan I know that.

Think of this. You can take a stock turbo and pull the hose it will go over 30 PSI boost.

Now imagine the boost capability that big turbo you have can produce.. Once you pegged the 3 bar you where going to be done like fried chicken. Two reasons.. one is your fuel mapping was never designed for that situation to happen. Two.. Somethings got to give when you over-boost.. the gasket, piston, block, etc.. Something has to let go.. Unless you built the motor to sustain 45 PSI, run a 5 bar for engine management and where expecting to go there. You've been running low-mid 20's for boost and everything was working and setup for that level. Until the boost controller failed. At that point.. see ya went the HG.

You'll be back up and running. Drop some bread on a good boost controller.. and get the logger wired up with sensor to watch things.

 

[bison]

Bison, Lonnie.


I have noticed that when tuning on a dyno that you tune to a livable A/F and the motor is happy and the XFI is showing very very little corrections. Then take the car to the track the same day and have the o2 sensor commanding like 10-15% extra fuel to stay at the same A/F.

I think that tuning a car tothe ragged edge on a dyno and then hitting the street/track is a problem due to the fact the load goes way up due to other forces like wind drag. I may be wrong on my thinking. but this is what i have observed on my car and on a few others. I have noticed this on alky and non alky powered GN's. ( this is really a problem if the needed fuel goes beyond what the ECM can correct to.)



Alky is a great tool as mentioned before but everything has a limit. Using the alky to get a few more psi on pump gas or to help deal with $hitty pump gas blends .But for all out racing the higher octane with alky helping the IAT's is the way to go. I know guys have went stupid fast of pump gas/alky I'm not a alky hater.


I have often thought about how well does the alky mix and get distrubuted evenly in all of the cylinders due the obvious ram effect in the plenum and also from nozzle placement.


As mentioned before opinions are like A$$holes every body has one. here is mine (.)

I've noticed the load in 3rd on the pavement is more than most chassis dynos without an electromagnetic brake have. Therefore you will typically make more boost off the dyno which is why you see the xfi adding fuel. Imagine a high hp car with a standard chip. If you look at that white car I completed a few months ago with a 5.6 chip it left the dyno at 4psi less boost. I left the fuel in there that it needed on 26psi. Plenty of safety built in there. The owner really has no clue about a/f even though there is an lc1 in the car. Better safe than sorry. The car ran 10.61 on that tune with the lc1 showing 10:1.

 

[Razor]

I guess you are refering to me, since I'm the only one that quoted how much a repair like that may cost? I wasn't hating on running alky in this thread, I learned my lesson on that awhile back when I got a bunch of hate pm's. But just to set the record straight, I've never (knock on wood) blown the hg's in my car or any other race gas car I helped tune. Now the only reason I know what it cost to repair a head because I needed it done on a car I helped on that blew up. I was not responsible for the tune of the ecm or alky on that car. I'm not an alky hater, I've installed 6+ of your kits on cars out of my own garage...in fact did one a few days ago. I think alky is great for your normal street tr , I just have had awesome luck with race gas at the track. I'm not trying to offend your product, its just my opinion, and we all have those so take it as just that.

Nah it wasnt what you wrote.. it was Lonnie's post 17. Its all good.

Stuff breaks when racing. The faster the car.. the more attention it needs.

Nobody.. not even Chuck Norris could have saved Bryan from the carnage the overboosting did. Once that 3 bar was pegged by losing control.. its over.

I have guys running 35-37 PSI on pump gas... They tune at 28.. then 30.. then 32.. then 35.. working up on it.. Not a turbo told to scream and make as much boost as it can.

 

[Grumpy]

would a Power Plate help for the front 2 cylinders?

I think I am the only one running one. No headgasket issues or burnt up plugs. I would like to see others input about it. We don't do dyno's either. Could it be something in the "Fast" system ?? We are still on a chip with a maf.

 

[jdsgnx]

Very SORRY to read about your car!!!!

May I say" BEEN THERE DONE THAT!!!!"

have been use pump gas and alky FOR EVER!!!

and yes I have blown, broken and GRENADED motors!!!

But I look at it like this, I choose to race and know the consequences.

I have spent alot, but also saved alot, BY not buying RACE GAS !!!

we all have to make our OWN deciscion.

BEST OF LUCK Bryan, if you need anything let me know!!!

JD

 

[quickt]

Bison, Lonnie.


I have noticed that when tuning on a dyno that you tune to a livable A/F and the motor is happy and the XFI is showing very very little corrections. Then take the car to the track the same day and have the o2 sensor commanding like 10-15% extra fuel to stay at the same A/F.

I think that tuning a car tothe ragged edge on a dyno and then hitting the street/track is a problem due to the fact the load goes way up due to other forces like wind drag. I may be wrong on my thinking. but this is what i have observed on my car and on a few others. I have noticed this on alky and non alky powered GN's. ( this is really a problem if the needed fuel goes beyond what the ECM can correct to.)

I agree

When I tune a car I use the dyno to give me an idea of my HP curve for timing and fueling. The use of the dyno lets me get my engine within a safe range of the wide band so I can use it for final VE adjustments. On the dyno I use the correction is 7-10% on average. The car goes to the track for final fuel corrections long before its smacked hard.

 

[SloGN]

Nah it wasnt what you wrote.. it was Lonnie's post 17. Its all good.

Stuff breaks when racing. The faster the car.. the more attention it needs.

Nobody.. not even Chuck Norris could have saved Bryan from the carnage the overboosting did. Once that 3 bar was pegged by losing control.. its over.

I have guys running 35-37 PSI on pump gas... They tune at 28.. then 30.. then 32.. then 35.. working up on it.. Not a turbo told to scream and make as much boost as it can.

Julio

I actually have a safe guard in my xfi concerning this same exact problem bryan had.

I actually go to the top line in the VE and in the A/F tables and make it stupid rich.

I no that at least the motor will go rich and try to save itself somewhat from something going aray. I know that even with these safegaurds that the $hit can still hit the fan.

 

[SloGN]

I've noticed the load in 3rd on the pavement is more than most chassis dynos without an electromagnetic brake have. Therefore you will typically make more boost off the dyno which is why you see the xfi adding fuel. Imagine a high hp car with a standard chip. If you look at that white car I completed a few months ago with a 5.6 chip it left the dyno at 4psi less boost. I left the fuel in there that it needed on 26psi. Plenty of safety built in there. The owner really has no clue about a/f even though there is an lc1 in the car. Better safe than sorry. The car ran 10.61 on that tune with the lc1 showing 10:1.

Bison

I understand that usually that the boost goes up with the load. But a couple of the cars that i have tuned on the dyno had closed loop boost controller that keeps the boost at a set level.

Now granted since i discovered this issue i tend to tune them to a tad richer A/F and lower the timing a couple of degrees. Cause i don't wanna pick-up the parts in a five gallon bucket.



Sorry if my questions have steered the thread away from the OP POV.


I have been in the GN game for almost 12 yrs and i still wanna learn as much as i can. :biggrin:



Speed cost how fast do ya wanna go?

HP= Cubic inches or Cubic $$$$$ or both

 

[quickt]

Nah it wasnt what you wrote.. it was Lonnie's post 17. Its all good.

Stuff breaks when racing. The faster the car.. the more attention it needs.

Hi Julio,
Sorry I offended you on Post 17. Alky is just not for everyone. But if you will read post 45 I think you will see a fair account of my experience with alky and pump gas. I can prove what I posted. I think you will also find that I endorsed the use of an alky system in the situations that I think are safe. Putting out information for people to pick and choose what they want to believe. I never said it does not work.

My research obviously not as extensive as your own with the use of your product. I would assume that each unit you sell if set on number 6 with a given boost level will flow about the same amount of Meth. I see in another post where you explain that 20-25% meth is a safe level to use with pump gas. Just a few minutes on this board I see that its common knowledge to tune your system set on 6 and go from there. Great we have a starting point. Although I am confused. If the system flows the same on 6 at a given boost level how do we stay at no more than 20-25% as stated Safe in all of the combos that use the system? If a stock ECU is being used how do we even know where we are? I am thinking TA49 car 25 psi with 42lb injectors. Or the stock injector combo with stock turbo, or the 6262 turbo car with 60s blah blah. Endless. The tool is in the hands of the person tuning the car. My point being nothing more that if the alky is abused as in the case I clearly laid out damage can and more than likely will result.

Point to ponder. If we are using alky to suppress detonation. Why would it be safer to tune in more pump gas with your engine management? I personally dont understand how safer is putting more pump gas in the system and not expecting it to detonate easier.

 

[SloGN]

Point to ponder. If we are using alky to suppress detonation. Why would it be safer to tune in more pump gas with your engine management? I personally dont understand how safer is putting more pump gas in the system and not expecting it to detonate easier.

I have often wondered about this same exact thing.

One other thing i often wonder is just how the alky keeps the pump gas from igniting on it's on. Is it the cooling effect> or does it change how the actual pump gas burns?


Motor octane is a results in how the fuel resists preignition based on compression/ timing events. John's Octane Engine Page, CFR / Octane / Supercharge / Cetane / D2699 / D2700

Well a blower/turbo raises the compression in the cylinder. if the alky has cooled the intake charge and turned to vaper in the intake/plenum area. how does it keep the pump gas from pre igniting in the chamber.

So the question is? does the alky vapor/charge provide cooling in the cylinder or does it actually change the burn charactistics to keep it from pre ignition.

 

[quickt]

1st I would like to admit I'm not a very educated man, but in my head the following makes sense to me.

In droplet form I can see exactly what you are talking about occurring, but if the alky had totally vaporized I would think it would flow with the air as it gets shoved into the cylinders.

My car doesn't make near the power of the ones you guys have been talking about, but I have seen no signs of unequal distribution anywhere. I did just hurt it recently, but it was number 3 and all my plugs were identical (doesn't look like it went lean, I think I forgot to prime the alky and at about 29 psi it didn't make it far on straight pump gas). I don't know how much fuel I'm replacing, but I don't think it's anywhere near the car you were talking about considering it made 570 and my DC% is in the high 80's with 72's (actual AF ratio about 10.6).

Any one know what ratio of alky is needed to get C16 octane out of pump gas?? or if it's even possible??

Hi Colin,
The car we were working on was an extreme example of pushing the envelope. I would ask how you read distribution but that would be very hard to do with alky.

If you have 100% vaporization meth I would bet you dont but have no way to prove or disprove. I have not done the research but I do believe meth vapor is probably lighter than air. What happens to vapor when it comes into contact with an object or surface. Adsorption and condensates back to a liquid. So we would then need to assume that the alky stays suspended in the air making no contact with the inside of the manifold as air does when it turns at the plenum and make its way threw the intake runners etc. If all this can take place to prevent the adsorption to the solid surface inside the intake were all good. Lots of assumptions I just dont buy it.

 

[quickt]

So the question is? does the alky vapor/charge provide cooling in the cylinder or does it actually change the burn charactistics to keep it from pre ignition.

Hummmm How does the positrac in a 63 Plymouth work? It just does!!!!!!! same principal applies

I honestly have no clue.

 

[we4Mateo]

I think I am the only one running one. No headgasket issues or burnt up plugs. I would like to see others input about it. We don't do dyno's either. Could it be something in the "Fast" system ?? We are still on a chip with a maf.

I am no where near the level you guys are at HP or knowledge wise but I'll run 25psi on my TE44 with my recipe car down to mid 11's this year for 20 passes or more and on the street another 10k miles. 65k miles with an SMC kit and no HG issues and now with Razor's kit and a home head port, it's a mean street car that doesn't need drag radials all the time. I run a power plate too and have never seen anything with my plugs that would indicate uneven fire. I change them every year and put 10k miles on my car and run at least 7+ gallons of meth through every year. For a true street car (no drag radials even though it's WAY more fun), alky is great. And I am the guy who runs modest timing at 20psi and is just trying to get the most out of pump gas, which alky is great for. Race gas kills O2 sensors and what would the fuel bill be for 10k miles per year? 10,000/20mpg=500*7.99/gal (NOT C16)=almost $4000/year in fuel. Gas @ $4 = $2000/year + $21 (7 gallons of meth) = BIG SAVINGS for us drivers out there. If my car was only track run, I'd run C16, one less pump to worry about. But if it runs on the street, it's ready to run on the strip too.

 

[Slow91z]

Hi Colin,
The car we were working on was an extreme example of pushing the envelope. I would ask how you read distribution but that would be very hard to do with alky.

If you have 100% vaporization meth I would bet you dont but have no way to prove or disprove. I have not done the research but I do believe meth vapor is probably lighter than air. What happens to vapor when it comes into contact with an object or surface. Adsorption and condensates back to a liquid. So we would then need to assume that the alky stays suspended in the air making no contact with the inside of the manifold as air does when it turns at the plenum and make its way threw the intake runners etc. If all this can take place to prevent the adsorption to the solid surface inside the intake were all good. Lots of assumptions I just dont buy it.

Oh I don't claim to be able to read alky distribution, I just meant that no cylinders appeared to have been run leaner than others based on plugs, condition inside the cylinders...You are correct on the assumptions, I have no idea how to even begin to prove any of this.

Hummmm How does the positrac in a 63 Plymouth work? It just does!!!!!!! same principal applies

I honestly have no clue.

LOL

 

[Phoneguy]

Some JB quick weld should fix this right up...

 

[Phoneguy]

Nah it wasnt what you wrote.. it was Lonnie's post 17. Its all good.

Stuff breaks when racing. The faster the car.. the more attention it needs.

Nobody.. not even Chuck Norris could have saved Bryan from the carnage the overboosting did. Once that 3 bar was pegged by losing control.. its over.

I have guys running 35-37 PSI on pump gas... They tune at 28.. then 30.. then 32.. then 35.. working up on it.. Not a turbo told to scream and make as much boost as it can.

Julio, I know damn good and well that Chuck Norris could have saved it...take that back!!! LMAO. That was pretty funny.


Bryan

 

[Alky V6]

Methanol cools in two distinctly different ways. One happens in the intake tract through vaporization. The other happens in the cylinder when the methanol molecule actually dissociates prior to combustion which happens at a particular temperature in the cylinder during compression, and, in certain cases, can occur during combustion, too.
The action of the methanol molecule dissociating absorbs heat in the same manner that the vaporization of methanol does.

You just have to hope that after the methanol has dissociated, the charge temperature is still under the autoignition temperature of the total fuel charge. In the case of gasoline of differing octanes being mixed with methanol at differing ratios, the autoignition temperature for the fuel charge becomes a very grey area.