(Cam) Lobe Woes (with New Motor)

[Nick Micale]

After building and installing hundreds of turbo Buick engines with flat tappet cams, this No.3 engine that wiped the cam. The other 2 used Mobil I oil.

Cam manufactures state NO WARRANTY if the proper oil is not used with a flat tappet cam, and that specifically applies to synthetic oils.

In the late 70's and early 80's, I used Mobil 1 and Amsoil in a few engines and they died an early and unexpected death. Since then I have not used synthetic oils.

The pictures of the cam show scuffing and wear consistent with the lack of EP additive in the oil.

Comp cams has this warning on line:

http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/threads/new-tech-bulletin-flat-tappet-camshaft-failures.1/

 

[strungout6]

I learned the hard way a couple years ago after wiping two lobes on a flat tappet in a 406 small Chevy. Broke the cam in like you are supposed to with High zinc oil and additive, after 500 I changed to conventional and shortly thereafter it dropped #8 exhaust and #6. After a lengthy conversation with Comp, turns out in 03 the E.P.A started slowly removing zinc from conventional oils. Zinc is very useful in an internal combustion engine, I wont get into details but it helps the cam, thrust, and all metal components that interact. Even in my roller cam GN engine I run 15-40 Rotella and a ZDDP additive. If you get bored look into Zinc and flat tappet cams. Dont hesitate to run a flat tappet cam guys have been doing so for 50+ years without issue just be sure to add zinc every time you change the oil.

 

[bison]

This thread has some really bad tech in it and all pricing that it posted should be deleted. Good luck with a $60 timing set on a roller cam with proper spring pressures. To properly install a roller cam it's over $1000. If you are paying someone to do the work it's quite a bit more.


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[EVIL]

This thread has some really bad tech in it and all pricing that it posted should be deleted. Good luck with a $60 timing set on a roller cam with proper spring pressures. To properly install a roller cam it's over $1000. If you are paying someone to do the work it's quite a bit more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

$1000 labor just to properly install a roller cam?

Damn. I’m in the wrong business.

D

 

[TURBOELKY]

This thread has some really bad tech in it and all pricing that it posted should be deleted. Good luck with a $60 timing set on a roller cam with proper spring pressures. To properly install a roller cam it's over $1000. If you are paying someone to do the work it's quite a bit more.


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We were quoting prices off cottons website. Like I said after the $60 timing set (I would not use).. I know what I paid for my roll master and I feel confident in the set. I've spent well over 1k on my cam setup.

 

[No disintegrations]

$1000 labor just to properly install a roller cam?

Damn. I’m in the wrong business.

D

Bison didn't say 1000 labor,
He said 1000 in parts. labor extra.

 

[~JM~]

$1000 labor just to properly install a roller cam?

Damn. I’m in the wrong business.

D

I'm betting that it will cost more than that. Wiped lobes & flat tappet lifters due to not following your engine builders break-in & proper oil recommendations... That will cost R&R of engine, complete cleaning of Block, oil galleries, all parts, etc, install all new bearings... Basically a new rebuild.

Ka-Ching!!!

What was that famous Forrest Gump quote?

 

[Terbro]

After building and installing hundreds of turbo Buick engines with flat tappet cams, this No.3 engine that wiped the cam. The other 2 used Mobil I oil.

Cam manufactures state NO WARRANTY if the proper oil is not used with a flat tappet cam, and that specifically applies to synthetic oils.

In the late 70's and early 80's, I used Mobil 1 and Amsoil in a few engines and they died an early and unexpected death. Since then I have not used synthetic oils.

The pictures of the cam show scuffing and wear consistent with the lack of EP additive in the oil.

Comp cams has this warning on line:

http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/threads/new-tech-bulletin-flat-tappet-camshaft-failures.1/

It would’ve been nice if you had said this when I asked you about it when I first got my car back. Remember, I asked you about oil. The only thing you told me was that you use conventional oil, and have never had a problem.

I can’t blame you, as so many have stated issues with flat tappet cams, but better communication about proper break-in, especially when I specifically asked about oil would’ve been great.

 

[~JM~]

The requirement for a zinc additive when using a flat tappet cam has been documented, cussed & discussed for over 10 years now.

It's fairly common knowledge & the information is easily available.

Time to look squarely in the mirror!

 

[ITSAV6]

http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP+Cams/249/K69-200-8/10002/-1
And you still have to have pushrods and the adjustable cam button.
Plus if no turbo saver metal filings went through the turbo also.

 

[~JM~]

It would’ve been nice if you had said this when I asked you about it when I first got my car back. Remember, I asked you about oil. The only thing you told me was that you use conventional oil, and have never had a problem.

I can’t blame you, as so many have stated issues with flat tappet cams, but better communication about proper break-in, especially when I specifically asked about oil would’ve been great.

" I can’t blame you... "

But you did, prior to editing your post.

 

[TURBOELKY]

If you don't know how to maintain any type of older car, you have no business owning it. I see a blame thread starting. Again. Just sell the car and get something modern

 

[EVIL]

Bison didn't say 1000 labor,
He said 1000 in parts. labor extra.

He didn’t say either, so my post is more of a question.

Knowing that a roller cam, lifters, springs, chain, pushrods and rockers alone is over 1000 dollars i didn’t think he was including parts in that quote.

D

 

[Boost231]

It would’ve been nice if you had said this when I asked you about it when I first got my car back. Remember, I asked you about oil. The only thing you told me was that you use conventional oil, and have never had a problem.

I can’t blame you, as so many have stated issues with flat tappet cams, but better communication about proper break-in, especially when I specifically asked about oil would’ve been great.

I just read this thread: http://turbobuick.com/threads/benefits-of-a-roller-cam.375422/page-2 Many are favoring the roller cam, and a few are mentioning the benefits of ZDDP. Never heard mention of it before that thread. I also saw a mention of keeping the oil cool. Nick and several others in my local TR club didn't feel the oil cooler was necessary. It had been removed from my car when I bought it. I only recently reinstalled it (less than 150 miles ago). I ran full synthetic oil, including Royal Purple with my first oil change at 100 miles. I also changed the oil at 1K miles with full syn then. Now I'm reading that conventional oil with ZDDP may be important for flat tappet cams, along with cooler oil temps. Of course I never raced the car unless the coolant temp was in the 160's or low 170's. But again, that was w/o the oil cooler (until recently).

Sounds like.... well....

 

[Terbro]

Just spoke with Jack Cotton. He's going to price me up everything I'd need for a roller cam. Not sure if I will, but just want to see if I can swing it.

P.S. I told him the history of what happened. I told him how I saw lots of black debris in the oil before I ever changed it (at 100 miles after I got it). He said that was most likely the cam debris. That debris was *why* I changed the oil. And once I changed the oil, I never saw any other debris.

 

[Terbro]

Someone suggested I send the photos of the cam to TA Performance and ask them their opinion of the cause, so I did. This was Mike at TA Performance's response:

This could have started on break in but recovered to a point. Normally once a lobe starts to go it goes. It will look way more worn than this lobe. I have seen this happen before but it's still not good. I would replace the cam if I were you. I would also check the heads for coil bind, seal to retainer clearance and open valve spring pressure. You really should have no issues but I would check. Open pressure would be the main point of attention in regards to the heads. You don't need 300lbs, 250lbs would get the job done maybe even less. Oil could be a factor, did the engine STOP AT ALL during break in, especially in the beginning. If so, not good. Some times it just happens and it's hard to answer the question as to why.

So, obviously many are praising the roller cams, and roger that. I wouldn't hesitate if it wasn't for the cost. But I'm curious to know how many have still wiped cams who've "done it all right", i.e., used the right oil, used the ZDDP additive and gone easy on the motor for the first few thou miles.

 

[ITSAV6]

Actually threw one away, a couple of lobes looked like they had tiny rust pits. It was broken in by the book, changed oil and filter,did about 20 min driving and changed oil/filter again, then repeated at 50 and 100 miles. Cut the filters open and looked good. Went to 10/30 semi synthetic. After 3-4k miles he decides to freshen the engine while the tranny was out and he called me to look at the cam, wth...the machinist said it was a defect in the cam itself. Something about the lobe temper wasn't right? It was a comp 206 or 208. Oil filter still looked good.
There were a couple of used roller cams in the for sale section 2-3 weeks ago, there's a set of roller lifters for $200 right now...

 

[ITSAV6]

http://www.turbobuick.com/threads/comp-billet-roller-cams.440147/

 

[Terbro]

http://www.turbobuick.com/threads/comp-billet-roller-cams.440147/

Thank you for that. I'll consider them. I know the price is right, and like the billet idea, but have always been one to buy new parts. These are getting a hair on the exotic side though...even the OP says "they're not for everybody".

I don't know....the words of so many others having wiped multiple lobes has me thinking that if I go roller now, I'm done, in addition to seeing a hair more performance. I'm still configuring my budget, but will hopefully be able to get Cotton's roller cam kit (w/roller rockers). Then I'll be roller boy.

 

[ITSAV6]

You can have roller cam and stock rockers, local mid 10 sec car does.