(Cam) Lobe Woes (with New Motor)

[Toby_Goodmk]

As I've stated several times now...I did the exact same thing. You got lucky. Nick told me nothing of the sort.

But I doubt it would've mattered, as I've also stated several times. The debris was present before I ever changed the oil.

Because there are so many ultra rude, overly opinionated people with too little experience behind that opinion, I often get PMs. And I have again. And one was from someone who mentioned that the wiping of the two cam lobes was relatively minor. They recommended 3 quick oil changes. And besides...I caught it very quickly. As I've said, I changed the oil at around 100 miles. I'm not just going to pull the motor assuming it's toast. There's no indication of that yet. After I changed the oil that first time, the oil remained clear for hundreds of miles. I will do an oil analysis and see if the bearings are wearing.

I'll take the steps needed to see if the bearings are toast, but considering there's no chance in hell Nick is going to rebuild my motor for free, I think I'll not just assume the bearings are fried, when I changed the oil so quickly, and considering...it did have an oil filter on it, which is designed to catch and hold larger debris, *maybe* it's okay. Maybe not, but it's yet to be determined...

First step is to open up the filter, then do an oil analysis...

Let's go over a couple things about the debris that was present. You do know that there is pepper looking particles which are deemed normal from the rings being seated in? I think this is what you were seeing. I have seen this pepper looking particles in two builds, one my TB, and the other a buick 350, it looked exactly the same. Changed the oil on both during the break in period and sure enough the particles go away after thousand or so miles.

I too changed my oil very quickly. Did the flush the engine quick 3 times. Heck I didnt even run it, I used a drill and primed/sent 5 weight oil through the system thinking this may be a good alternative to try and clean some passages out. Then after I started it up and idled it, changed oil again, drove 50 miles, changed again. I think the flush oil a couple times is not such a good thing to do. I almost lost a forged steel stroker crank all because I thought a "flush" would work. I wish I would have kept the bearings to post pictures of them, but in all honesty after I received my engine back.....the bearings were in the box....I threw them away and said to my self, "it's my fault, I should not have took a short cut, stick to the basics, don't reinvent the wheel with "innovate products" when old tried and tested ones are already there for you!!

I am not going to come out and be rude, as this is not how I operate. However I do feel a little more due-diligence on your end should have been exercised. I don't know your background. I have a good bit of engine knowledge, and knock around sense. But when it comes to things that I am not 110% confidence in, I research the fire out of every possibility, good or bad which may happen. When I cannot understand 100% of what I am forking out cash for, it makes me nervous, when I cannot get the answers to my questions, I become a pain in the ass. Ask Cal Hartline about me and the FAST, God sakes I drive that man nuts with questions. But at the end of the day.....learn it, understand it, own it.

 

[bison]

Bison didn't say 1000 labor,
He said 1000 in parts. labor extra.

The job takes all day to do and to do 100% correctly with degreeing it takes even longer. Better plan on $1000 labor for the work.

 

[Terbro]

I spoke with Jack Cotton and also emailed Nick today. Firstly, I want to say I appreciate Nick's response. We've had some tough times, but he was very informative and gave some quality advice. It well coincided with Jack Cotton's, whose opinion is not only very qualified as well, but impartial. Both stated it's unlikely my motor has been damaged. Nick and a guy who PM'ed me both stated that in looking at the pics, there's relatively very little material lost off of those two lobes, and probably not enough to cause damage.

Jack said if I wanted, I could drop the pan, pull the main cap and inspect those bearings. He and Nick both recommended thoroughly cleaning the engine & oil passages (Jack recommended lots of Brake Clean). So that's what I shall do. While it sounds unlikely, now would be the time to pull the block (since it's sitting bare in the engine bay) and have it freshened with new bearings.

Today, I ordered a "pushrod length checker" (TFS-9001) from Summit.

 

[ITSAV6]

Good deal!

 

[Terbro]

Being that this is taking too long with my mechanic...pressure by him (because it's been too long in his garage), and other issues, I'm not going to continue with him. I think I may continue the work myself (which will be some major firsts). I'm going to start another thread to see I'm up for this.

 

[earlbrown]

I've read this thread, most of the bad advice, most of the flat out wrong data, and was forced to skim the last two pages and I felt dumber for what I read.

That being said, there's a few rules for building a flat tappet buick V6 engine in modern times.


First) a flat tappet camtrain belongs in a museum not an engine.

Second) if you think you know a special trick to make one live, you've most likely been around this stuff for a looooooooooooong time and you know so much about EVERY specific you're refereed to as a 'guru'.

Third) if you're not a guru, leave the car where it's at until you can get a roller cam.


Outside of those rules, if you have a flat cam and it starts to go a little flat, you're fucked. Just in case that's too vauge, let me elaborate.... You're fucked! with an exclamitaion mark.


this is not a small block chevy. If you patch an engine and leave debris behind there's more than just $100 for a re-ring and a few bearings. When these engines see debris that debris takes out your engine, your oil cooler/radiator, your turbo, your bearings and your livelyhood.

When you patch up these engines that seen debris, you get to relive losing your engine, your oil cooler/radiator, your bearings and your turbo all over again.



There's a saying I like (and I honestly believe it's mine) that goes something like this..... "It's always cheaper to do it twice than right.


....no.... wait......"



Pull the engine, tear it down, remove the cam bearings and all the oil galley plugs. Take it to a machine shop and let it spend an hour in a high temp dishwasher. Knock in some new bearings, burnish the lifter bores, do the oil mods, reinstall the galley plugs, put in some new fancy brass welch plugs, paint it up all pretty.

Then assemble the engine like you really want it to have the best chance of living a long and healthy life getting it's ass beat by the accelerator pedal.


And don't be scared of synthetic oil. I put that *#$#$(% on everything (except my motorcycles with wet clutches, it's just too slick for the clutches to work)

 

[ITSAV6]

Just wondering, what was the bad advice and wrong data.

 

[Terbro]

Hopefully you caught it in time. There is no way to flush the oil system properly in the car. Post pics of the filter cut open.

I'm shocked, and very pleased at how good this filter looks. There isn't any debris at all. This is 308 miles after the last oil change. The oil and the filter look like 0 miles.

I think maybe I got lucky when I decided to check and change the oil at 100 miles.

 

[Nick Micale]

Just wondering, what was the bad advice and wrong data.

The "wrong data" is Earl's opinion which was stated as facts.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is what he posted.

About 1/3 of the Buick V-6 engines we build, about 3-5 a month, go out with a flat tappet hydraulic cam and they do the job fine for their life.

The cam in question here did not "wipe" in my opinion, but appears to be a manufacturing defect. Hopefully we can get this cam returned so we, and with the manufacturer, can make a determination of this issue.

There was not enough "damage" on this subject cam to put debris through the engine to cause any issue if the oil system was properly purged and cleaned.

In the late 90's and early 2000's, there was a rash of many flat tappet cams failing, not just turbo Buicks, but various makes and models. The problem the major supplier of cam blanks had an issue with the surface hardening process, so that started the panic in the turbo Buick world against replacement flat tappet cam?

If an owner want to double or triple the factory HP, that may be time to consider a roller cam.

 

[ITSAV6]

I'm shocked, and very pleased at how good this filter looks. There isn't any debris at all. This is 308 miles after the last oil change. The oil and the filter look like 0 miles.

I think maybe I got lucky when I decided to check and change the oil at 100 miles.

That is a nice sign

 

[ITSAV6]

The "wrong data" is Earl's opinion which was stated as facts.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is what he posted.

About 1/3 of the Buick V-6 engines we build, about 3-5 a month, go out with a flat tappet hydraulic cam and they do the job fine for their life.

The cam in question here did not "wipe" in my opinion, but appears to be a manufacturing defect. Hopefully we can get this cam returned so we, and with the manufacturer, can make a determination of this issue.

There was not enough "damage" on this subject cam to put debris through the engine to cause any issue if the oil system was properly purged and cleaned.

In the late 90's and early 2000's, there was a rash of many flat tappet cams failing, not just turbo Buicks, but various makes and models. The problem the major supplier of cam blanks had an issue with the surface hardening process, so that started the panic in the turbo Buick world against replacement flat tappet cam?

If an owner want to double or triple the factory HP, that may be time to consider a roller cam.

I was curious. The cam I pulled out and threw away looked way better. His filter looks perfectly clean. I remember those cam failures and the first non billet roller fiasco too. Main reason I kept my stock cam so long. Looks like this one turned out ok.

 

[earlbrown]

The "wrong data" is Earl's opinion which was stated as facts.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is what he posted.

About 1/3 of the Buick V-6 engines we build, about 3-5 a month, go out with a flat tappet hydraulic cam and they do the job fine for their life.

Nick, i think you missed my second point about needing to be well versed (which you are) with these engines to make a flat tappet live. With todays cam blanks, faster ramp speeds, non hardened tappets and de-zinc'd oils, the old days of slapping one in, running it for 30 minutes and it working are long gone.


My 'opinion' on flat tappets belonging in a museum came from here....

http://www.turbobuick.com/search/14367457/?q=wiped+cam&o=relevance

..and here...

http://www.turbobuick.com/search/14367464/?q=cam+debris&o=relevance

..among others...

I have no problem learning from others misfortunes.


I stand by my 'opinion' as I will never recommend a newbie or someone that doesn't have ALL the tools and knowledge to set up the entire cam/valve train start to finish.

If you can't accurately set poundage, clearances, pushrod length, rockers, burnish lifter bores, verify proper tappet travel, etc... installing a fat tappet is too close to Russian Roulette to my tastes. Outside of a competent shop, there's too much luck involved with the turbo, engine, and coolers paying the price.

I have access to all that stuff and I let me car sit much longer until I could go roller. I may worry about certain parts of my new build but the camtrain isn't one of them.

 

[Terbro]

I was curious. The cam I pulled out and threw away looked way better. His filter looks perfectly clean. I remember those cam failures and the first non billet roller fiasco too. Main reason I kept my stock cam so long. Looks like this one turned out ok.

Keep in mind this is the 2nd oil change. The filter from the change at ~100 miles probably had debris in it.

But Nick's suggestion that it was a defective cam got me thinking. But let's review a couple of facts. I noticed the black debris within the first week of getting the car back (changed the oil then, and after that, the oil remained clean with that oil; the oil in it now is the 3rd it's had since being rebuilt). So there's fairly solid evidence that the cam damage occurred in the first few miles, and little if any additional wear occurred after that. Now...importantly, only the two lobes I took pics of have any wear whatsoever. The other 10 look perfect. It's not breaking news to anyone that I'm not a cam expert, but my thinking is that because the wear is strictly limited to two lobes...does that support Nick's suggestion that the cam is defective?

Earl mentioned "clearances, pushrod length, rockers, burnish lifter bores, verify proper tappet travel". So when checking pushrod length, does one have to check/measure each one individually? Is it uncommon for each pushrod to be a unique length?

This is what I was thinking/hoping: Firstly, as Nick mentioned, he doesn't believe the cam "wiped". I believe he thinks this because only those two lobes saw wear. Is it more common to have more or all of the lobes wipe? Or is it common to see isolated lobes like mine (with all the others remain perfect)? My hope is that those who've had their motors destroyed due to wiped cams had more or all of the lobes wiped. Because if such is the case, I only had 1/6th (<17%) of the debris that a cam that had all the lobes wipe circulate into the motor.

I had another thought - that if it's that the metal on those lobes was softer due to a contaminant in the iron, then that softer metal would do less or no damage to the bearings than pure iron. But that's probably not realistic. AKA...I'm dreamin'.

I haven't attempted to remove the oil pan yet. Do I have to lift the block up to have it clear the cross member, or is it a straightforward - unbolt and remove?

 

[Boost231]

Unbolt and remove. You might have to spin the motor by hand to get it out all the way

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

 

[t-typinator]

At this point it reallly makes the most sense to just pull the motor.
The thing is all torn down already .
It probably wouldn't take much longer to pull the motor now then it will take to finagle the pan off from underneith.
Then it will be SOOO much easier to reassemble the motor,heads, cam, front of engine etc. with it on a stand.
While it's on the stand you will be able to check out the bearings,and some of the oil passages alot easier/better also.
If you don't have a Chainfall or Cherry picker and can't borrow one ,you may be able to rent one from an auto parts store or rental place.

Your mechanic that you said was going to help you at your house, will love you and be a hell of alot happier putting it all together on a stand vs bending over fenders in the car.
I'm sure it will save you some Money on labor also because it's going to be quicker and easier to reassemble and set everything up when it's out of the car.

And if you do end up finding a bunch of debris in the bottom end and or bearing wear, then the motor will already be out for the cleanup.
Just a suggestion.

 

[larrym]

I pull my motor to change head gaskets things are so much easier on a stand. My back is ruined in no time hanging over a fender.

 

[SS/GN]

The "wrong data" is Earl's opinion which was stated as facts.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is what he posted.

About 1/3 of the Buick V-6 engines we build, about 3-5 a month, go out with a flat tappet hydraulic cam and they do the job fine for their life.

The cam in question here did not "wipe" in my opinion, but appears to be a manufacturing defect. Hopefully we can get this cam returned so we, and with the manufacturer, can make a determination of this issue.

There was not enough "damage" on this subject cam to put debris through the engine to cause any issue if the oil system was properly purged and cleaned.

In the late 90's and early 2000's, there was a rash of many flat tappet cams failing, not just turbo Buicks, but various makes and models. The problem the major supplier of cam blanks had an issue with the surface hardening process, so that started the panic in the turbo Buick world against replacement flat tappet cam?

If an owner want to double or triple the factory HP, that may be time to consider a roller cam.

Nick can you tell us what springs and pressures you use/recommend for a hydraulic flat tapper cam. I think this is a big factor in the life of these cams

 

[t-typinator]

I pull my motor to change head gaskets things are so much easier on a stand. My back is ruined in no time hanging over a fender.

Yup,been there, done that, it's a killer.
And in this case he's also doing a new roller cam setup,and wanting to remove the oil pan and check bearings,oil passages etc.
If an engine puller and stand are available,I'd be making with the yankage.

 

[larrym]

Yup,been there ,done that it's a killer.
And in this case he's also doing a new roller cam setup,and wanting to remove the oil pan and check bearings,oil passages etc.
If an engine puller and stand are available,I'd make with the yankage.

Yeah that is another very good reason to pull it, you can clean things properly inspect bearings and clean out your oil pick up.
By the time you have everything disassembled in the engine bay your more than halfway out, motor mounts torque converter bolts and bell housing and its loose I don't even pull the hood I got hook in the ceiling I stand it straight up with a bungy cord and come in from the side with my cherry picker bumper stays on too.

 

[Terbro]

Dropped the pan just now and took off the main cap. It was hard to get a good pic of the bearing. The discoloration you see in the photo are stains, not wear. I'd like Nick to chime in and give his opinion. The bearing feels perfectly smooth throughout...I don't see or feel any scratches or signs of wear.

Not that this would tell too much, but the motor looks perfectly clean. I only noticed a small bit of debris on the oil pick up.