Fast XFI or Big Stuff Everyday Driveablilty

[GNBRETT]

WOW I would love to answer that question. I dont want to start mud slinging contest. I can tune the XFI but dont know the little tricks in the software for ironing out driving issues so it takes me longer to work out bugs but I can handle it. The Accel and Electro I know inside out and know all the little tricks. Motec not too bad either. The BS3 IMO is warmed over Fast Classic with old out dated software. Tech help if you are in a pinch is non existent and if you do even get the arrogant return phone call you will be treated as if you are an idiot. Warranty forget it. I can go on and on as to other issues with the unit but I have posted enough to bring out the BS3 guys to blast me as it is. All the systems work. They all have good and bad. Do your home work if you are buying make an informed decision and disregard info from those who have not used a system they say is inferior. Helping a buddy once does not qualify IMO someone to really have a honest evaluation of a system. Yet some will run their wiener cleaner as if they know all there is to know. Talk to people who own and use the systems you are looking buy. Example: Ask Jason White how well he was treated with tech when he owned a BS3. Beware of salesman who do not sell other systems and can not give you an objective opinion as to pos/neg of each. Those guys do what is called SWUG. (Sell What You Got) Last but not least dont take info posted in a thread like this one and run out and spend your money. Everyone will be throwing darts for their favorite.

Now that's an intelligent response if I ever heard one. Good advice 4sure.

I think it all comes down to do you want to learn to tune ur stand alone or do you just want to leave it up to those who are talented with that particular stand alone unit.

I personally would choose an XFI. Not because I can tune it but because I have friends who can. If I didnt id be going a different route for sure. But I don't think there is any doubt that the FAST/XFI is the system used in probably 90% of the fastest cars in all buick classes and also used primarily on high dollar street car builds. Those numbers don't lie.

Just like Razors kit is in the same class with these fast cars. Im sure they all have their pros and cons but those cons are only directed at someone who is not an expert in tuning that particular unit.

The tune seems to be the most critical element in what makes a car go fast vs a car that makes you sh!t ur pants and still drives calmly while cruising.

I would never dream of taking my 2004r to a local tranny shop who says he has a lot of experience with building 2004r trannies if he wasnt a house hold name. I personally would send it to Lonnie. Why? Because I never here anything but positive things about his trannies. It was one of the reasons I bought my last car cause I knew it had a bullet proof tranny. Im sure their are other who are just about as talented as well like PTS or CK. But you can only choose one. When was the last time someone read a negative post about his trannies being weak? Probably never.

How many of the top racers build their own engines? Not many. Most go to an expert engine builder DLS, RPE, ANDERSON, WEEBER, etc. The tune is just as important as the motor so I can't understand why someone would spend $10k on a motor and then screw around learning how to tune their car. Hire an expert just as one would for a tranny, motor, etc...

I don't think just anyone can learn to get the most out of an XFI, MOTEC, BS3, or Whatever... by trial and error. I think there is a true talent and god given skill to tune an XFI, ect... Not just anyone can build a tranny or motor or piece together a converter like PTC right now. Who isn't buying a PTC converter right now when looking for a new converter? So why is that any different with tuning.

The point is when a product is proven over and over again to help the fastest cars win races over and over year after year you would have to think that maybe they are superior. Maybe they are not.

IMO it all comes down to the numbers. They dont lie when it comes to Buicks. It's XFI for the TR. For Mustangs it seems to be BS3. And if you have money to burn then you get a Motec but then u still need someone to tune that.

 

[Grumpy]

No, I would not let my wife drive it, but I would let my mom Anywhere!

well we have a place on the lake.. sometimes her car is blocking others to get out.. they just simply take her car.. get in it and drive ok have to go and order a "chip" for my other 9 sec car :biggrin:

 

[SloGN]

Here is the best way i can sum things up.


Yes there have been stock ECM's and chip into the 9's There is a ton of the stock ecm's in the 10's

The aftermarket ecm's have been there and faster. But what seperates the two is how many engines/headgaskets did each of them kill before getting to the goal? My bet is the stock ecm has far more kills under it's belt.

 

[Grumpy]

The aftermarket ecm's have been there and faster.

I'd like to see each car battle it out .. like in the TAI class .. chip vs aftermarket oh as far as "kills" .. I'd say they are prob even .. I call it "lack of tuning"

 

[SGRIM]

I'd like to see each car battle it out .. like in the TAI class .. chip vs aftermarket oh as far as "kills" .. I'd say they are prob even .. I call it "lack of tuning"

I know what will be on our TAI car:biggrin:

 

[Grumpy]

I know what will be on our TAI car:biggrin:

taking it to BG ?? be great to see
dammmm..sorry for the "hijack" .. I am outta here

 

[jpwalt1987]

WOW I would love to answer that question. I dont want to start mud slinging contest. I can tune the XFI but dont know the little tricks in the software for ironing out driving issues so it takes me longer to work out bugs but I can handle it. The Accel and Electro I know inside out and know all the little tricks. Motec not too bad either. The BS3 IMO is warmed over Fast Classic with old out dated software. Tech help if you are in a pinch is non existent and if you do even get the arrogant return phone call you will be treated as if you are an idiot. Warranty forget it. I can go on and on as to other issues with the unit but I have posted enough to bring out the BS3 guys to blast me as it is. All the systems work. They all have good and bad. Do your home work if you are buying make an informed decision and disregard info from those who have not used a system they say is inferior. Helping a buddy once does not qualify IMO someone to really have a honest evaluation of a system. Yet some will run their wiener cleaner as if they know all there is to know. Talk to people who own and use the systems you are looking buy. Example: Ask Jason White how well he was treated with tech when he owned a BS3. Beware of salesman who do not sell other systems and can not give you an objective opinion as to pos/neg of each. Those guys do what is called SWUG. (Sell What You Got) Last but not least dont take info posted in a thread like this one and run out and spend your money. Everyone will be throwing darts for their favorite.

Well I have had the BS3 gen1 for several years and I must agree that customer support is almost non existant. I have had to learn on my own and with not much track time it has been a slow learning curve. Honestly if I had to do it again I would buy an XFI. There is so much support here in the Buick community that it would be hard not to get help. That being said I do like having the ability to tune using the wideband and having control over everything. The last chip stuff i used was back in 2000. I had a max effort chip for 009s that I went 11.38 on using a direct scan. I like the my BS3 way more than any chip set up have had. Later.

 

[SloGN]

What engine management system dick kerney's car have on it when it run in the 8's?

 

[Boost231]

What engine management system dick kerney's car have on it when it run in the 8's?

xfi if i remember right

 

[HighPSI]

I'd like to see each car battle it out .. like in the TAI class .. chip vs aftermarket

Didn't they run that class last year at BG?

As for Dick Kereny, see sig below

 

[dentmasters01]

I'd like to see each car battle it out .. like in the TAI class .. chip vs aftermarket oh as far as "kills" .. I'd say they are prob even .. I call it "lack of tuning"

the big difference is, at the track ( any track ) you can find xfi tunners until you get the hang of tuning your own system. how many people are seeking out "chip burners" at local tracks so they can change thier program to make another run ? Also, IF their is, by some magical aligning of the stars, someone at "your" track that can burn a chip....where do you start ? what do you change ? with the fast, you have everthing at your fingertips about what is going on with your car. you can see what you need to change. Remember, we're talking about the average (or above average) DD. How many DD have chip burning equipment in their trunk ? Plus, i remember a story about a fuel pump going out on a duel pump set up and the fast, with the bennefit of correction, added enough fuel to the system to save the motor .....think that was at bg ? Something that ( I think ) no one has mentioned as of yet is the diagnostics that the fast can help with too. To me its a no brainer.

 

[Grumpy]

the big difference is, at the track ( any track ) you can find xfi tunners until you get the hang of tuning your own system. how many people are seeking out "chip burners" at local tracks so they can change thier program to make another run ? Also, IF their is, by some magical aligning of the stars, someone at "your" track that can burn a chip....where do you start ? what do you change ? with the fast, you have everthing at your fingertips about what is going on with your car. you can see what you need to change. Remember, we're talking about the average (or above average) DD. How many DD have chip burning equipment in their trunk ? Plus, i remember a story about a fuel pump going out on a duel pump set up and the fast, with the bennefit of correction, added enough fuel to the system to save the motor .....think that was at bg ? Something that ( I think ) no one has mentioned as of yet is the diagnostics that the fast can help with too. To me its a no brainer.

XFI tuners at the track ??? NOT at mine up here @ New England Dragway. Even @ the Buick races LOTS guys need the "tuner's" to do their programs for them .. I STILL watch and hear about guys trying to get there cars running good .. Whenever they ask me about it I tell em to put a chip in it and call it a day for their daily drivers NO I don't have a chip burner to make "adjustments".. Turbo Tweak chips have adjustments you can do without reburning a new chip.. Simple thing to do..
My cars are street cars that are simple set ups.. It's driven EVERY DAY !! You want an XFI ... go for it !!!! To each their own

 

[TurboDave]

the big difference is, at the track ( any track ) you can find xfi tunners until you get the hang of tuning your own system. how many people are seeking out "chip burners" at local tracks so they can change thier program to make another run ? Also, IF their is, by some magical aligning of the stars, someone at "your" track that can burn a chip....where do you start ? what do you change ? with the fast, you have everthing at your fingertips about what is going on with your car. you can see what you need to change. Remember, we're talking about the average (or above average) DD. How many DD have chip burning equipment in their trunk ? Plus, i remember a story about a fuel pump going out on a duel pump set up and the fast, with the bennefit of correction, added enough fuel to the system to save the motor .....think that was at bg ? Something that ( I think ) no one has mentioned as of yet is the diagnostics that the fast can help with too. To me its a no brainer.

Modern chips, like Extenders and Turbo Tweak have their own unique set of adjustments available. Add to that a plethora of adjustments available in the modern Translators, and there's not much that can't be done (or ran) with the stock ECU and chips.

 

[dentmasters01]

Modern chips, like Extenders and Turbo Tweak have their own unique set of adjustments available. Add to that a plethora of adjustments available in the modern Translators, and there's not much that can't be done (or ran) with the stock ECU and chips.

With a "plethora of adjustments" your turning the stock ecu into somthing like the fast.....without all the bells and whistles that comes with the fast. If a system is so good, then why try and duplicate what another stand alone system already does. You have more cogs in the wheel that can go wrong. The ecu uses a starting point with the chip and there is only so much you can do with that, even with all the additional add-ons you can put on the car. It is still far inferrior, as richard clark said, to the newer systems with faster processors and endless manipulation. You have to have a good starting point with the fast, which is easily obtainable from the pro's or someone else that has a tune with similar mods, just as a starting point is needed within a chip before you can start tinkering with it. To each their own. There is no doubt that a DD can run great with a new chip, translator, ect. ect., but you plug a fast in, down load a program, make a pull, and can see everything that just happened and make any changes accordingly ....I don't have to buy 3 or 4 different things to make them function "similar" , to what a fast does.

 

[kingots2004]

ive tried turbotweak chips and full throttle chips with a gen2 translator and neither give the throttle response of the fast i swapped to.if you dont have the money the other stuff does well but if you can afford to swap to fast i would do it in a heart beat

 

[SloGN]

I went and did some searching and tallied up what it cost to do a piggy back set-up for the stock ecm to have WB control and speed density.

These prices are from mike licht website.


Maf-pro 400.00
Power logger 265.00
Tuner-pro Chip 120.00
Innovate LC-1 230.00
GM 3 bar sensor 55.00 ( GMpartsdirect)

Total 1,070.00


I bought my Classic Fast system 3 yrs ago for 1,000 with a new W/B.

so a new xfi is only 800.00 more than what i have posted up above.

Ok just think that if you swap out injectors you gonna need another chip for that. what if you later change the turbo well does the current chip you have willl it allow you enough adjustment to keep the engine running at the correct a/f


The best benefit to a after market system is that you will not need to buy anything else later on down the road. just make the changes and your done.



s

 

[jasjamz]

so a new xfi is only 800.00 more than what i have posted up above.

Ok just think that if you swap out injectors you gonna need another chip for that. what if you later change the turbo well does the current chip you have willl it allow you enough adjustment to keep the engine running at the correct a/f


The best benefit to a after market system is that you will not need to buy anything else later on down the road. just make the changes and your done.



s

Another one of these threads...
Just $800 more huh... That was funny. What about the "start up tune". If your lucky to get one from a vendor. Now you have to do the driveability, part throttle, idle, cold start, and WOT tuning. Or, pay a "tuner" to do it for you. Then he can tune it to how fast he feels is safe for you. Add that in please. I like the fancy stuff but its like and high horsepower car, it should never be put in the hands of an novice.

 

[WSLN 6]

True, the aftermarket options are not for a novice, but I am impressed how easy it is the play around with the options in the XFI.
Love it for daily driving or racing so far.
Start up tune from Cal was included, as was over the phone setup of all the intial tuning (except WOT). Took about 20 minutes total to dial it in.

 

[dentmasters01]

Another one of these threads...
Just $800 more huh... That was funny. What about the "start up tune". If your lucky to get one from a vendor. Now you have to do the driveability, part throttle, idle, cold start, and WOT tuning. Or, pay a "tuner" to do it for you. Then he can tune it to how fast he feels is safe for you. Add that in please. I like the fancy stuff but its like and high horsepower car, it should never be put in the hands of an novice.

You still have to pay a chip burner for the chip changes too....so that argument of paying a "tuner" for the xfi is a wash....If you only have a chip, with no available choices of tune, you have to take the chip out, mail it off and wait until they send it back to you....whats so difficult about getting a start up tune for the xfi ? One can actually get a start up tune from the vendor they buy the xfi from ... The great thing about the xfi, as mentioned above, any add on's you decide to buy later, are easily intergrated with the xfi as your tuning device without having to buy another chip. Also, if your at the track, and have wireless internet on your lap top, ( as I do ) you can record a run, email it to one of the vendors ( jack has done this for me personally...he rocks !) he can make the changes and email it back. You can download it and be ready to make another run without missing a pass.... Now THAT is kick ass technology ! There is NO comparison....

 

[SloGN]

Another one of these threads...
Just $800 more huh... That was funny. What about the "start up tune". If your lucky to get one from a vendor. Now you have to do the driveability, part throttle, idle, cold start, and WOT tuning. Or, pay a "tuner" to do it for you. Then he can tune it to how fast he feels is safe for you. Add that in please. I like the fancy stuff but its like and high horsepower car, it should never be put in the hands of an novice.

when i bought my Fast system used it already had a program loaded into the box. But that program was set-up for a 274 inch stage 2 with 95 pound injectors.

It took all of 2 mins to make the needed changes to have it starting a running my engine (see sig) I had to tweek it along the way since i have been changing things on the engine that affected the tune on the engine.

Most of the stuff the chip guys do is more for WOT they mostly rely on the info buick did back in 87 for the rest of the tune/program.


well there is not any novice guys out there burning chips either . so thats a moot point aswell. If one can learn to tune with all the add-on stuff for the stock ecm they can learn to use a stand-alone system aswell and maybe get the hang of tuning a engine a little faster since one can see everything with a aftermarket system.