Intake manifolds

[charlief1]

If I see correctly those are constant flow injectors aren't they?

 

[Alky V6]

If I see correctly those are constant flow injectors aren't they?

Yes they are. They're rated at 97.4 lb/hr @ 30 psi. They are rated using gasoline. A solenoid controls flow to the nozzles. The ECM controls the solenoid. The ECM is programmed to open the aux fuel solenoid at 8 psi.

In case I didn't make it clear to those that are not familiar with my setup, the engine runs on 100% methanol. The nitrous system is also paired with methanol. No gasoline allowed!

The base fuel pressure is 45 psi with a referenced regulator. The electronic injectors are 160 lb/hr at 85% duty cylcle by the top end. The constant flow nozzles turn on at 8 psi and run off the same fuel supply as the electronic injectors. I was only running one Weldon pump. I will now be running two. The second pump will come on at 8 psi along with the nozzle control solenoid. The flaw in the system as I see it is that the fuel supply to the constant flow nozzles does not increase with engine rpm. It is referenced to manifold pressure, but pressure and volume does not increase with engine rpm. A belt driven pump for the nozzle system alone would take care of that and would extend the hp range of the whole fuel system.

 

[charlief1]

This may sound dumb but couldn't you put a third electrical pump and have it turned on at a higher boost level? That would give you the extra fuel without the mechanical pump and you could taylor it to different presures, or am I being a little ignorant.

 

[Alky V6]

This may sound dumb but couldn't you put a third electrical pump and have it turned on at a higher boost level? That would give you the extra fuel without the mechanical pump and you could taylor it to different presures, or am I being a little ignorant.

When it comes to my disfunctional fuel system, there is no such thing as a dumb question. My fuel system is as unique as my intake.

You've got the right idea. It's the main reason I'm installing the second fuel pump. I was trying to do it all with one fuel pump. I'm going to separate the nozzle system from the main fuel system and run the nozzles on its own system supplied by the second fuel pump. If the second electrical pump isn't enough, I'll replace the second pump with the belt driven fuel pump and run the nozzles off the mechanical pump. Then I'll have to figure out how to bypass the fuel and redirect it to the nozzles when the extra fuel is needed. I've got some ideas in mind. It could end up being a mix of an electronic system and a mechanical fuel injection system. The vast delivery capacity of a mechanical injection system with the tunability of an electronic system.

 

[charlief1]

It seems like you'd benifit from three, using the solinoids to block the siameesed fuel line. For the constant presure ones you split the suply and the first one comes on a 8 psi and the second comes on at a higher presure to get rid of the lean issue.

 

[Alky V6]

It seems like you'd benifit from three, using the solinoids to block the siameesed fuel line. For the constant presure ones you split the suply and the first one comes on a 8 psi and the second comes on at a higher presure to get rid of the lean issue.

I'm sorry. You lost me. Could you be more specific?

 

[charlief1]

I'm sorry. You lost me. Could you be more specific?

Don, If you have 2 different presure switches that will activate at different presures you can take and use the solinoids as presure blocks on the fuel lines and put 2 lines into the constant injectors. This would allow for a higher presure after say 15-20 psi. That would give you 2 different pumps and you could run seperate presure pumps to get rid of the lack of fuel you need to get what you're after. Granted you need 3 pumps to do it but it shouldn't be a problem. You could even use relays to trigger the pumps so they're not running constantly.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, If you have 2 different presure switches that will activate at different presures you can take and use the solinoids as presure blocks on the fuel lines and put 2 lines into the constant injectors. This would allow for a higher presure after say 15-20 psi. That would give you 2 different pumps and you could run seperate presure pumps to get rid of the lack of fuel you need to get what you're after. Granted you need 3 pumps to do it but it shouldn't be a problem. You could even use relays to trigger the pumps so they're not running constantly.

I think I understand. The idea I had for the second fuel pump and system was to run a regulator for that system that referenced at a higher value than the 1 to 1 that is used on the electronic fuel system. The reason for using the 1 to 1 on the electronic system is because the electronic injectors are picky about how high a pressure they can operate at and still deliver a consistant pw. The mechanical nozzles are not as picky, so I can run a different reference value with the second regulator.

 

[Alky V6]

I think I understand. The idea I had for the second fuel pump and system was to run a regulator for that system that referenced at a higher value than the 1 to 1 that is used on the electronic fuel system. The reason for using the 1 to 1 on the electronic system is because the electronic injectors are picky about how high a pressure they can operate at and still deliver a consistant pw. The mechanical nozzles are not as picky, so I can run a different reference value with the second regulator.

I'm thinking the fuel pressure regulator that I will be using with the secondary fuel system is going to be a very important tool for getting the fuel delivery curve I need. Two important variables to play with will be the initial fuel delivery pressure at the activation point, then the ratio of the reference value as map increases. The overall curve can be raised or lowered by the base fuel pressure adjustment, and the steepness of the ramp up of pressure can be changed using different pressure reference ratios with the regulator.

I really appreciate the feedback from all of you. The system I just described is actually something that I've figured out through this last bit of discussion. It seems it's pretty straight forward, and easy to setup. You guys are great.

 

[14mins]

I am blown away with all the thought and detail in what you have done. While i understand very little of the last 4 pages here i am impressed with how you have gone about all this. My proudest achievement during my 17 years and counting of owning a GN was when i finally got the thing to idle correctly with everyones help on this site 5 years ago.

Congrats!!!!

 

[DailyDrifter]

I really appreciate the feedback from all of you. The system I just described is actually something that I've figured out through this last bit of discussion. It seems it's pretty straight forward, and easy to setup. You guys are great.

So what are your plans, any updated pics?

 

[Alky V6]

So what are your plans, any updated pics?

They put me to work at the shop, imagine that, so the toy is on hold until I can get caught up.

So far, I finished making a new stainless distribution manifold for the aux sys and I have some SS fittings on order for the plumbing to the nozzles. I'm also working on the bracketry that will hold the nozzles in position. After the internal plumbing of the aux fuel system is finished I'll move to notching the frame. After that I'll mount the other fuel pump and route the new fuel lines.
As soon as I have the internal fuel sys done, I'll post some pics of it.

 

[turbofabricator]

Don, Why not just use a barrel valve and use a boost can to move the barrel valve. Old school but could be effective. That way, you can buy the needed parts and use a wastegate actuator to move the valve. You could even use an electronic wastegate controller to fine tune it. Kinda like giving a caveman a wrist watch. I am a little concerned about the reliability of a pressure switches, we even have them go bad in the aviation world. By using a barrel valve, you can mechanically control the fuel to your secondary system.
Have you talked with the folks at Kinsler? or some of the other old school methanol guys about what you are trying to accomplish. Alot of the old school guys like to play on the far end of the spectrum. I understand that Kinsler likes to think outside the box. Might want to give them a call, if you haven't already.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, Why not just use a barrel valve and use a boost can to move the barrel valve. Old school but could be effective. That way, you can buy the needed parts and use a wastegate actuator to move the valve. You could even use an electronic wastegate controller to fine tune it. Kinda like giving a caveman a wrist watch. I am a little concerned about the reliability of a pressure switches, we even have them go bad in the aviation world. By using a barrel valve, you can mechanically control the fuel to your secondary system.
Have you talked with the folks at Kinsler? or some of the other old school methanol guys about what you are trying to accomplish. Alot of the old school guys like to play on the far end of the spectrum. I understand that Kinsler likes to think outside the box. Might want to give them a call, if you haven't already.

I have talked to Kinsler. They are the shop that I got my nozzles from, among other parts. They were helpful, but really didn't have much to add. I think my fuel system scared the hell out of them. They'll be happy to sit back and see if it works. They did let me know that the leanout solenoid that I'm using to control fuel to the aux system is going to be flow limited at some point soon. Keeping a watchful eye on the fuel mixture will be very important.

I like your idea on the barrel valve. In fact, I've been toying with the idea of running a more complete mechanical system along side the electronic system. It will all depend on whether or not I can get the fuel volume out of the new configuration.

 

[charlief1]

Don, I think turbofabricator just called you a caveman. LOL But the barrel valve just might work.

 

[Alky V6]

Don, I think turbofabricator just called you a caveman. LOL But the barrel valve just might work.

Yeah, I kinda caught that too. I probably have it coming, so I just let it slide.

I agree. If the leanout solenoid becomes a big enough restriction, I will do the barrel valve or something very similar to it.

 

[turbofabricator]

It's so easy, Don, even a caveman can do it! I really didn't mean it to sound like I was calling you a caveman. It just sounds like a really fun project with alot of old school, and very complicated at the same time. My kind of foolin' around. I prefere to do things that someone else says is impossible. I'm still trying to dribble a football, but I'm working on it. I like to watch Don's progress and project. He should come to work with us on aircraft. We do things like that everyday. The new 787 will be like that. A million different new things on it, and still has some caveman stuff, too. Unfortunately it WILL have wings and a tail. The anti-gravity technology is still a few years out. As soon as I can dribble a football, I can start work on the anti-gravity stuff.

I think you could get a boost activated barrel valve tailored to what ever fuel curve you need. Maybe throw a 25% mixture of nitro in it just for the "smell". 'Course you'll need a few back up engines if you play with that stuff. Nitrous and methanol was used heavily back in the piston unlimited hydro days, with turbos, too. I can get in touch with guys that use to do that for a living if you would like. Most ran Hilborn. Here is a picture of one example:

 

[just plain john]

Amazing skills

Donnie, we've never met but I would sure like to shake your hand. I've never seen a finer example of craftsmanship. You, sir, are the bomb. If that Buick thing doesn't work out, perhaps you could could whittle the next space shuttle out of a hunk of billet with your table top mill. I salute you, even though I'm a mere mortal.

 

[Alky V6]

Thanks for the pictures, Ken. Very interesting.
For me, the nitrous side of the engine has always been trouble free. No problems with that area. The problem has always been getting enough fuel to this thing. It'll get there.
I've decided to run 2 large Weldon pumps, each with their own -10 supply line to the engine bay, return lines and bypass regulators. The nozzles will be on their own system. Fuel supply will be adequate for a freakin lunar launch. It's all going to boil down to the controls and the supply from the controls to the nozzles with acceptable restriction, and picking and ramping the pressures properly for the nozzle system. Kinsler seems confident that the combination of the 160 lb/hr electronic injectors and nozzle sizes will do the job to 1200hp, as long as the right pressure is there.

The more I think about it, the more I like the barrel valve with the boost control. The spool of the barrel valve could be tailored to bring the flow in at whatever ramp I choose. The control would have to be very repeatable though. As the wastgate type device wore, it would change the ramp.

One of the obstacles of my system is when the nozzles are turned on. A lot of fuel is dumped in and the electronic injectors have to be cut back at a precisely timed spot in the fuel map. The amount of cut back is bordering the limits of what the ECU allows. If the nozzles started in at a lower volume and then increased in flow volume at a steaper rate with boost, I would not be on the edge with the electronic system.

 

[Alky V6]

Donnie, we've never met but I would sure like to shake your hand. I've never seen a finer example of craftsmanship. You, sir, are the bomb. If that Buick thing doesn't work out, perhaps you could could whittle the next space shuttle out of a hunk of billet with your table top mill. I salute you, even though I'm a mere mortal.

Thanks. It's not that you're mortal. You're just not crazy.:tongue: