Main Thrust Bearing Problem??

[m233roller]

I'm posting this for a friend of mine here as he has one of the vigilante 5 disc converters. Has anyone experienced any main thrust bearing problems from running this conv. lately? He has knocked the number two main bearing out of his engine twice now and it is NOT the thrust surface on the crank. This thing has been checked and double checked and everything is good.??

 

[williambavila]

delete.lol

 

[m233roller]

Nope, I'm not Bill as I still think your wiped cam took your brearings out. This is for a friend of mine (Jerad) here that has wiped two thrust bearings out. NO others just number two.

 

[williambavila]

That is interesting.

 

[machinegun]

I have experienced similar situations, Not necesarily the convertor.

In our case the trans went bad and shove the crank forward the mess that followed was a destroyed crank block, slinger.

I also had a case where the TC rusted itself to the inside of the crank releif. This again caused excessive wear on the rear thrust side of the crank bearing.

So to answer is it possible? Yes. I would start checking though, you may have other issues to like the trans or pressure issues in the trans.

You keep saying only the number 2 bearing, there is only 1 thrust bearing and you did not mention whether it was the rear side of the thrust or front side of the thrust?

 

[m233roller]

Yes I guess I should of said it better, I know there is only one thrust bearing , just trying to say it's just the thrust bearing and NO others that are getting thrashed. Front side is ate up. Thanks for your imput. I remember the thread about TC rusting itself to the crank, now that's a RARE one. I also told Jerad I'd be checking trans pressures.

 

[WS6]

Clevite bearing per chance?

 

[Nick Micale]

Mike, I talked with him yesterday and told him what we found years ago about this issue.

Call me if you would like to discuss it.

 

[Steve V]

It would be nice to post that info in this thread for all to see and learn from....please......

 

[bison]

If it was the front of the bearing its not a converter issue. Post pics of failed thrust bearing.

 

[machinegun]

I agree, if it is the front side of the thrust it would not be the trans, that is why I was asking which side.

Did not mean to imply that you did not know ther was only one thrust I just wanted to clarify.

Nick, I would be interested in hearing your theories or experiences with thrust bearing issues.

I have experienced one that just fought me, after a complete new setup problem gone. Of cource the only thing left from old setup was the cam and fron hub.

I am very interested in your input on this.

 

[turbodave231]

I am very interested in your input on this.

X2

Nick, I've never had the problem, But I'd like to hear what you found.

Dave

 

[Nick Micale]

This may offend some people that own and use the 5-disk Vigilante converter, but I will give our bad personal experiences with this converter.

My first encounter with one was in 1999 when a friend's GN had his converter lock up and would not release, like a manual clutch car that is not releasing. This happened on a few other GN's I worked on as well.

The first time we encountered the thrust problem was on Dick Kereny's GN before he was running
TSM and using a 200-R4. When we re-installed the freshened engine, we found very little clearance between the flexplate and converter.

After a few discussions with the owner of Precision with him trying to convince us it would not be a problem, we removed the converter as it was not worth the risk of damaging another thrust bearing. We also had to replace the front pump in the trans since there was a mod done for this converter

We have had only 3 other customers destroy the thrust bearing, and all used this converter.

Out of 600+ plus engines we have done locally and sent all over the country and Canada, no others have had thrust issues.

On the 3 returned engines we could easily tell is was the converter at issue since there would be a tell-tale purple ring about 6" in diameter on the flexplate from the converter pushing hard on it and the crank.

My opinion is that with normal street driving, this converter may not be a problem, but I am not willing to take that chance? My son recently bought a GN with that converter, and I would not let him drive it until we changed the converter as we had just installed a fresh engine.

The cars I described were low 11 and 10 sec. cars that would also see more RPM and HP than normally on street cars.

As Mike stated, his friend took out the thrust twice using this converter, and he does race his GN.

 

[turbodave231]

Nick, Thanks for sharing your experience.

 

[turbofabricator]

If it was the front side it isnt the converter. Probably caused by a poor line hone/cap fitment issue. Then there is the crank grind finish on the thrust faces. Every time they "touch"the thrust faces to true them it leaves a saw tooth finish that'll eat a thrust bearing in short order. I always hand polish the crank with 600 then 1500 grit paper. Since doing this I have not had a thrust bearing failure.

 

[we4Mateo]

If it was the front side it isnt the converter. Probably caused by a poor line hone/cap fitment issue. Then there is the crank grind finish on the thrust faces. Every time they "touch"the thrust faces to true them it leaves a saw tooth finish that'll eat a thrust bearing in short order. I always hand polish the crank with 600 then 1500 grit paper. Since doing this I have not had a thrust bearing failure.

Revisit! I have a couple of questions as I'm using this converter now, but am leary of using it with my next engine; 450rwhp now vs closer to 600rwhp when I'm done, hopefully. Please excuse my rookiness, but why couldn't it still be the converter if it was the front thrust? A ballooning converter will still push the whole assembly forward right?

This may offend some people that own and use the 5-disk Vigilante converter, but I will give our bad personal experiences with this converter.

My first encounter with one was in 1999 when a friend's GN had his converter lock up and would not release, like a manual clutch car that is not releasing. This happened on a few other GN's I worked on as well.

The first time we encountered the thrust problem was on Dick Kereny's GN before he was running
TSM and using a 200-R4. When we re-installed the freshened engine, we found very little clearance between the flexplate and converter.

After a few discussions with the owner of Precision with him trying to convince us it would not be a problem, we removed the converter as it was not worth the risk of damaging another thrust bearing. We also had to replace the front pump in the trans since there was a mod done for this converter

We have had only 3 other customers destroy the thrust bearing, and all used this converter.

Out of 600+ plus engines we have done locally and sent all over the country and Canada, no others have had thrust issues.

On the 3 returned engines we could easily tell is was the converter at issue since there would be a tell-tale purple ring about 6" in diameter on the flexplate from the converter pushing hard on it and the crank.

My opinion is that with normal street driving, this converter may not be a problem, but I am not willing to take that chance? My son recently bought a GN with that converter, and I would not let him drive it until we changed the converter as we had just installed a fresh engine.

The cars I described were low 11 and 10 sec. cars that would also see more RPM and HP than normally on street cars.

As Mike stated, his friend took out the thrust twice using this converter, and he does race his GN.

I plan on racing my car a lot; 30-50 passes per year like now but with most in the 10's with the new build. Have they made any changes to this converter in recent years to stop this? I value your opinion Nick, but am wondering if this was with older 5-disc Precisions and if they are the same now or not. I'll probably go NL PTC anyway, but I was hoping to at least see how my current converter worked before doing that. I'm not using it though if that much power makes it push that hard on the crank. No trans brake here and still mostly street driven. Were any of your failures on like cars similar to mine or were they on a transbrake and thus up on the converter hard? Or does this occur all the time and not just while staging/launching?

Thanks in advance to anyone that can contribute. I appreciate Nick sharing his wealth of experience to help us late to the game not make the same mistakes as the pioneers.

 

[we4Mateo]

Revisit! I have a couple of questions as I'm using this converter now, but am leary of using it with my next engine; 450rwhp now vs closer to 600rwhp when I'm done, hopefully. Please excuse my rookiness, but why couldn't it still be the converter if it was the front thrust? A ballooning converter will still push the whole assembly forward right?



I plan on racing my car a lot; 30-50 passes per year like now but with most in the 10's with the new build. Have they made any changes to this converter in recent years to stop this? I value your opinion Nick, but am wondering if this was with older 5-disc Precisions and if they are the same now or not. I'll probably go NL PTC anyway, but I was hoping to at least see how my current converter worked before doing that. I'm not using it though if that much power makes it push that hard on the crank. No trans brake here and still mostly street driven. Were any of your failures on like cars similar to mine or were they on a transbrake and thus up on the converter hard? Or does this occur all the time and not just while staging/launching?....

Any input? Anyone out there running big power through a 5-disc VIG?

 

[haywire4130]

"we4mateo: Please excuse my rookiness, but why couldn't it still be the converter if it was the front thrust? A ballooning converter will still push the whole assembly forward right?"



exactly... it would push the crank forward, wiping out the REAR face of the thrust bearing. something would have to be pushing the crank toward the rear to eat up the front surface of the thrust. my opinion is the front of the crank has excessive runout, or the "sawtooth" theory mentioned above from improper polishing.

 

[cruzn57]

if it got pushed forward, wouldn't it return back? causing wear on both surfaces?
granted the thrust forward would be more severe, causing more wear, but it's not under forward
pressure ALL the time!
just a thought.

 

[bison]

if it got pushed forward, wouldn't it return back? causing wear on both surfaces?
granted the thrust forward would be more severe, causing more wear, but it's not under forward
pressure ALL the time!
just a thought.

There is a film of oil that keeps the crank from contacting the bearing and yes it is seeing forward pressure as soon as the converter is pressurized with oil. So no there shouldnt be wear. The converter isnt pressing into the flywheel and is pressing directly on the crank flange in the instances explained prior. This can happen for different reasons but in any case the failure is because of the converter. Excess converter pressure is a problem observed at times but not common on a 200-4r. If the converter cover distorts it could hit the flange and if the converter pads are the incorrect height it could be a problem. It could be so close that idling its fine but as soon as the pressure rises the converter pushes toward the flexplate and it deflects under the load. If its built incorrectly the converter could hit the flange.