Need someone to weld my heads to the block

[Mike Licht]

If you did that to the block and have aluminum heads I wonder how much of the heat treat is left in the heads? If the heads go soft you will have this problem and then cracks.
Mike

 

[TurboBuRick]

We had the electrodes melt off the plugs. It got that hot. Check out what it did to the block.

Holy smokes! The first thing that pops in my head when I see that is lean. Did #2 look the same?

What do you think about this theory. Thinking on the other side of the coin. Fuel system is not keeping up and the alky (doing it's job) keeps it from detonating.

Mike just gave something else to think about too.

This is a good thread.

 

[Turbo Loyd]

what temp does the air need to be when the meth enters the pipe in order to turn into a gas?

Psia (absolute) includes the atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psi at sea level compared to the psig we usually read for turbo boost.

The graph is from: http://www.methanex.com/

Keep in mind the heat of vaporization of methanol would lower the charge air temperature considerably, so there is a possibility there could be vaporized liquid that would follow the path of least resistance into the rear cylinders. So cylinders 1 & 2 would be leaner.

 

[KevinB]

Holy smokes! The first thing that pops in my head when I see that is lean. Did #2 look the same?

What do you think about this theory. Thinking on the other side of the coin. Fuel system is not keeping up and the alky (doing it's job) keeps it from detonating.

Mike just gave something else to think about too.

This is a good thread.

That's a possibility too. After the 1st incident #2 looked ok. After the car went back together is when the electrode burned off #1 and 2 . Did a compression check and 1 and 2 where 90 and 110, the other 4 were 150. Did not have the tools to do a leak down though. No milkshake and no loss of coolant. Figured the rings or a valve got smoked the second time. Fuel was then added to 1 and 2....this all happened at 18 psi with a 67 with alky and c16. After the fuel was added, we ran the car again. Plugs all looked the same. So, problem was fixed. In fact the car eventually was turned up past 25 lbs and ran awesome....even with the hurt holes.
The fuel pressure was always being logged and never showed any signs of falling off. We changed the questionable injectors and all the ignition parts after the 1st incident and we still had the 2nd incident happen. The 2nd incident happened on a lot less boost then the 1st incident ...probably the reason it didn't blow the gasket out again. Btw...this engine has 1/2" studs.
So, in my opinion, there is either a problem with not enough gas or alky in those 2 cylinders. Adding the gas helped...but running c16 like we were would definitely take the place of the lack of alky in those two cylinders if you follow me on that. Now if we were running 93 the extra gas may not have helped because of the lack of octane.

 

[Turbo Loyd]

With the methanol being injected into the engine could the wide band O2 sensor be seeing a slight rich condition and the ECM pulling gasoline from the engine. With the two state flow (methanol vapor and methanol droplets) the front two cylinders would receive very few if not any of the droplets, causing uneven distribution of the added fuel.

For instance in extinguishing agent system design with two phase flows the best practice is to split a flow in the horizontal versus the vertical planes. When this practice is not followed the lower area definitely has a higher concentration. In our case it is not gravity pulling the droplets into the lower flow, but inertia or unwillingness of matter to change directions, forcing the droplets into the rear cylinders.

 

[WSLN 6]

Does anyone have any air intake temp sensor readings when this happens? I have seen temps around 60deg F in the plenum at WOT before the meth was injected. Once injected the sensor would just peg at 36 deg F, rising to maybe 40 deg F at the end of the run. Would explain why the meth would not flash off.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

was there an RJC plenum plate being used?

A.j.

 

[KevinB]

was there an RJC plenum plate being used?

A.j.

No

 

[WSLN 6]

Has happened to me with and now without the plate.

 

[imjoesnuffy]

Makes you wonder how hard it would be to rig up a #5 alky nozzle to each intake runner??

Worst case scenario, the cylinders that were getting reduced airflow, would just be really rich (1 and 2). This in turn might throw everything off, especially if you were using wideband tracking.

Your thoughts?

 

[WSLN 6]

Or maybe one of the alky nozzles at the back of the plenum spraying forward....

 

[Slow91z]

Makes you wonder how hard it would be to rig up a #5 alky nozzle to each intake runner??

Worst case scenario, the cylinders that were getting reduced airflow, would just be really rich (1 and 2). This in turn might throw everything off, especially if you were using wideband tracking.

Your thoughts?

It would definitely insure you are getting the same amount of alky to each cylinder, (assuming your pump could keep up with 6 nozzles).

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Or maybe one of the alky nozzles at the back of the plenum spraying forward....

thats exactly what im thinking.

I have the same issues as you guys, the flow is to the back of the intake. (normal for a blower to do that)

would it be OK to do that? push the alky forward with just pressure?

A.j.

 

[Slow91z]

Or maybe one of the alky nozzles at the back of the plenum spraying forward....

The only problem with putting nozzles after the throttle plate is you have to put some sort of valve/solenoid in the line running to the motor so it doesn't suck all the alky out of the tank at part throttle/idling.

 

[turbofabricator]

I have read the whole post and ther is alot of great ideas here. One thing that I didn't see was the testing of the knock sensor. Take a long 3/8 drive extension and tap on the back of the intake near the knock sensor to see if it registers knock. If not, then install a new sensor and trouble shoot from there.

I have an alky system on my car with 6 nozzles spraying down each runner. (one nozzle per cylinder) I used the smallest fuel nozzle I could find from NOS. (sorry, don't remember the size, but I think they were .015"). I had to use a alcohol compatable nitrous fuel valve to eliminate flow under a vacuum condition. I can unplug my fuel injectors and open the solonoid and run the car to 3500 rpm with no gas flowing. Smells like a sprint car, though.
We are having problems with a StageI 274cid engine keeping head gaskets alive, too. Well, actually its pushing water out, but haven't removed the heads yet. I used Cometics with copper coat between each layer, and it uses 14 bolt TA heads. The car ran 10.12@135+ on pump gas and dual nozzle Alky system. (not my car, Dennis Hogans T-Type) I'll have the heads off in the next few days, though. I, too, feel it's alcohol related and am going to try and science a solution out. I really think it's time to engineer a real EFI alcohol system to work evenly with 750+ hp, when using alcohol and pump gas. That's just way too much power to leave fuel distribution to chance. Time to use multiple nozzles at a minimun and a fuel valve. Maybe I'll swap my parts over to his car and see if it works better than a dual nozzle set-up. His car still runs a stock ECM and a 3.5" MAF w/ gen1 Translator, too.

 

[imjoesnuffy]

Or maybe one of the alky nozzles at the back of the plenum spraying forward....

thats exactly what im thinking.

I have the same issues as you guys, the flow is to the back of the intake. (normal for a blower to do that)

would it be OK to do that? push the alky forward with just pressure?

A.j.

I dont think a nozzle on the back of the intake spraying forward would have enough pressure to overcome the velocity of the air coming in. It would end up going to the back cylinders anyway??? I really dont know squat when it comes to air/fluid dynamics to back up that statement but that air is coming in pretty fast. I think someone said earlier in this thread that the alky gets vaporized as soon as it hits the "windstream" anyway.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

I dont think a nozzle on the back of the intake spraying forward would have enough pressure to overcome the velocity of the air coming in. It would end up going to the back cylinders anyway??? I really dont know squat when it comes to air/fluid dynamics to back up that statement but that air is coming in pretty fast. I think someone said earlier in this thread that the alky gets vaporized as soon as it hits the "windstream" anyway.

thats a rock solid observation.

and now im thinking port injection is gonna be the only answer.

I wonder though, if the amount of effective cooling changes because of the reduced time in the intake plenum when relocating the injectors to the ports?

now i am jealous of the turbo.

A.j.

 

[imjoesnuffy]

I have read the whole post and ther is alot of great ideas here. One thing that I didn't see was the testing of the knock sensor. Take a long 3/8 drive extension and tap on the back of the intake near the knock sensor to see if it registers knock. If not, then install a new sensor and trouble shoot from there.

I have an alky system on my car with 6 nozzles spraying down each runner. (one nozzle per cylinder) I used the smallest fuel nozzle I could find from NOS. (sorry, don't remember the size, but I think they were .015"). I had to use a alcohol compatable nitrous fuel valve to eliminate flow under a vacuum condition. I can unplug my fuel injectors and open the solonoid and run the car to 3500 rpm with no gas flowing. Smells like a sprint car, though.
We are having problems with a StageI 274cid engine keeping head gaskets alive, too. Well, actually its pushing water out, but haven't removed the heads yet. I used Cometics with copper coat between each layer, and it uses 14 bolt TA heads. The car ran 10.12@135+ on pump gas and dual nozzle Alky system. (not my car, Dennis Hogans T-Type) I'll have the heads off in the next few days, though. I, too, feel it's alcohol related and am going to try and science a solution out. I really think it's time to engineer a real EFI alcohol system to work evenly with 750+ hp, when using alcohol and pump gas. That's just way too much power to leave fuel distribution to chance. Time to use multiple nozzles at a minimun and a fuel valve. Maybe I'll swap my parts over to his car and see if it works better than a dual nozzle set-up. His car still runs a stock ECM and a 3.5" MAF w/ gen1 Translator, too.

What are your thoughts on something like a plate type system built into a plenum spacer? An alky distribution plate that acts as a spacer. A hollow spacer with a nozzle pointed at each intake runner and a simple connection at the front or back?

 

[imjoesnuffy]

thats a rock solid observation.

and now im thinking port injection is gonna be the only answer.

I wonder though, if the amount of effective cooling changes because of the reduced time in the intake plenum when relocating the injectors to the ports?

now i am jealous of the turbo.

A.j.

You bring up a good point. How much space/time does methanol need to effectively cool the incoming air? Located in each runner is that enough "space/time"?

Sorry for the hijack of this thread, just thinking out loud.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I'm getting pressurization from the Cometics too, it's super annoying and I literally need to depressurize the system every week or the thermostat won't open at 160 on the virgin open while driving.

I 2nd looking into the knock sensor, if it doesn't hear anything, it's not pulling anything.

I take it the EGR tower is machined out of the intake?

If you inject the Meth as far away as possible on the intercooler pipe you shouldn't have any issues.

I'm curious why more builders don't O-Ring the heads, my O-Ring Fel Pro took a beating and instead the thrust went before the heads did.