New to E85. Few questions

[KevinB]

What heads are you running since the r5671a-9 has a different reach than the stock head plugs?

Do you plan on upping the gap, would help your cruise and possibly start up with E85. I don't see how you couldn't fire off a .032 considering us E3 plug runners are .040 and mid 20's psi.

So this is a double pumper Walbro through a -8 with 96lbers correct?
With the 6768 turbo at 24psi, 11:1 AF/R and that crazy rpm I could see 90% IDC creeping up on you. Time for dual DW's or Jay Racing pumps (these are the highest flowing pumps so far).

No one else is scratching there heads at 6900rpm on a 109 stockish block?
Appears as if that build was a good one.

I got data logs that show 7500 rpm during tire spin. Its not too stockish. 109, stock stroke eagle crank, k1 rods, wiseco pistons, aluminum girdle, gn1s. It was out of my old tsm car. Its built well and is taken apart every winter and inspected. Solid roller cam. Its been mid. 9s in my old car.
This car has stock fuel lines right now. This double pumper and these injectors were at 80 DC with a -8 feed at 142mph in the old car.
On the dyno, going from .030 to .022 was 11 HP. .032 never worked in my old car above 6200 rpm with the stock c3i.
I'm not sure what route I'm going with the fuel system. The goal of the car is to run
9s with AC and so simple my wife can drive it. I'm thinking of going dual dw's and a -10 with 160's.

 

[Alky V6]

With the -10 line, you'll be all set to switch to methanol later on. :biggrin: With the 160s, you'll be halfway there.

 

[1outlaw]

You are getting some great input from Don -- and you are working your plan very smart. Do watch now as your E80 turns to about the 83.3% of full summer grade because you will lean just a bit more. (I am assuming your test of the E85 was accurate at 80%--be aware the phase separation- water test- method is not super accurate if that is what you are using)

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Whoa, 7500rpm on a stock stroke crank, that's awesome.

GN1's, that makes sense now on the reach.

"On the dyno, going from .030 to .022 was 11 HP"
As in it lost 11whp or gained it due to spark blow out issues?

Ya I can see an issue trying to light off boost on a stock ignition setup at mid to high 6k rpms. That's why Bob Bailey's COP is going to be a nice addition to our platform.

Dual DW's, -10 and 160's is a killer setup, hopefully my .750 ID rails will be available as that will help complete the volume needs .590 rails on E85 will hinder.

 

[KevinB]

Whoa, 7500rpm on a stock stroke crank, that's awesome.

GN1's, that makes sense now on the reach.

"On the dyno, going from .030 to .022 was 11 HP"
As in it lost 11whp or gained it due to spark blow out issues?

Ya I can see an issue trying to light off boost on a stock ignition setup at mid to high 6k rpms. That's why Bob Bailey's COP is going to be a nice addition to our platform.

Dual DW's, -10 and 160's is a killer setup, hopefully my .750 ID rails will be available as that will help complete the volume needs .590 rails on E85 will hinder.

Yeah I was thinking about the rails. Which ones are you talking about? The ta ones are aluminum and from what I've read that's not good with e85.

We gained HP with the smaller gap. This engine in my old car gained 2 MPH going from .032 to the smaller gap. The stock coil pack or at least the one I use, don't like the bigger gap at high HP and rpm. Try It sometime for yourself at the track for yourself and see if it makes a differences for you.

 

[turbocliff]

So this is a double pumper Walbro through a -8 with 96lbers correct?
With the 6768 turbo at 24psi, 11:1 AF/R and that crazy rpm I could see 90% IDC creeping up on you. Time for dual DW's or Jay Racing pumps (these are the highest flowing pumps so far).

I run double pumper walbro through a single -8 with 120lbers, 6768 and excess of 24psi on E85. Barely seen 75% DC. For what Kevin's goals are, I suspect he will need to change to a single -8 feed, and up the injectors to 120s, or 160s if he chooses... but his pumps will do the job. If his pumps quit, then sure might as well upgrade, but I am seeing alot of posts in this e85 forum about fuel systems and guys are building fuel systems to support 800rwhp when they are making less than 500rwhp... seems excessive unless they plan on replacing the powerplant with a stage motor and a 76+ mm turbo down the road don't you think?

 

[turbocliff]

Dual DW's, -10 and 160's is a killer setup, hopefully my .750 ID rails will be available as that will help complete the volume needs .590 rails on E85 will hinder.

How much power are you trying to make that you believe .590 rails are an issue?

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I think we're all in agreement with Kevin to upgrade his lines to the -10 and see how much IDC drops right? Don't see keeping the stock lines when IDC will surely drop to offer him more headroom.

I'd be curious to see how many miles you get on those dual Walbro's and E85, haven't seen anyone brake the 10,000 mile club with just one which is why I suggested the DW's since they're stronger and have over 4k hours on E85 and still running. I wasn't saying to just ditch the Walbro's to do it, but if volume is needed and the pumps are on the "To Do" list, the DW's are a reliable choice for E85 GN members. There are guys going through 3 Walbro's a year on E85, my Denso lasted about 1500 miles, I don't recommend parts to members I wouldn't run myself, so ya, no Walbro or Denso in E85 IMO.

.590 rails are better, to a point, if you dual feed them, but it's a bottleneck like every other part in a single feed E85 system. Take a look at your fuel mods, dual fuel pumps at 100% larger, fuel line that's 33% larger and Injectors that probably 100% larger, and yet these are all feeding a fuel rail smaller than the stock ID?
Running aluminum rails single feed past 500whp is not worth it IMO, along with the corrosion I'm already seeing, are reasons why I'm having rails made. Maybe someone with an XFI can log IDC change after the swap and it'll have a factual benefit in IDC to justify the change.

But it's not like I thought of upping the rail ID first, saw it in the Import World and shops who also thought it was an unneeded restriction (rail ID's around .500).

 

[turbocliff]

I think we're all in agreement with Kevin to upgrade his lines to the -10 and see how much IDC drops right? Don't see keeping the stock lines when IDC will surely drop to offer him more headroom.

I'd be curious to see how many miles you get on those dual Walbro's and E85, haven't seen anyone brake the 10,000 mile club with just one which is why I suggested the DW's since they're stronger and have over 4k hours on E85 and still running. I wasn't saying to just ditch the Walbro's to do it, but if volume is needed and the pumps are on the "To Do" list, the DW's are a reliable choice for E85 GN members. There are guys going through 3 Walbro's a year on E85, my Denso lasted about 1500 miles, I don't recommend parts to members I wouldn't run myself, so ya, no Walbro or Denso in E85 IMO.

.590 rails are better, to a point, if you dual feed them, but it's a bottleneck like every other part in a single feed E85 system. Take a look at your fuel mods, dual fuel pumps at 100% larger, fuel line that's 33% larger and Injectors that probably 100% larger, and yet these are all feeding a fuel rail smaller than the stock ID?
Running aluminum rails single feed past 500whp is not worth it IMO, along with the corrosion I'm already seeing, are reasons why I'm having rails made. Maybe someone with an XFI can log IDC change after the swap and it'll have a factual benefit in IDC to justify the change.

But it's not like I thought of upping the rail ID first, saw it in the Import World and shops who also thought it was an unneeded restriction (rail ID's around .500).

The feed line: I am not in agreement that a -10 is required. I believe a single -8 feed would be more than sufficient given Kevin's goals. I say this from personal real world experience seeing that I have made north of 850rwhp on a single -8 feed and 1/2" fuel rails. If Kevin chooses to run a -10 feed that is his choice.

The pumps : Your original comment regarding switching to the DWs implied you believed he was running out of pump with the twin walbros. My response was simply that the walbros will get the job done to meet his goals. I had not commented on reliability as I only have about 250miles on my setup since switching to E85 (including about 40 dyno pulls and many "HARD" miles on the street), but as far as running for 10K miles... I only expect to put around 2500 miles a year on the car and doubt I would have the same combo in 4 years to evaluate. I to would not recommend installing parts that I would not run myself either, but I would also not recommend replacing parts that are already on the car when whats in place works and will meet the goals of the owner.

The rails : Ive personally made north of 750rwhp with a stock single feed fuel rail and a single -8 feed with 96# injectors peaking at 81% DC. Granted this was on C16, but there was alot of room to make more power in the fuel system. With E85 on the same setup larger injectors would have been needed no doubt, but the line and rail would have been fine.

 

[KevinB]

I'm going to stick with what I got for now plus bigger injectors. Mainly bc of budget. Also I will take my car to the edge and will be able to tell people real world limitations of the stock components in track time/MPH. I think many out there would like to know how fast you can go for cheap on e85 before stepping up to big dollar fuel components. We all know running new fuel lines ain't cheap. I already know from my testings that you can have a mid 10 second car with the stock lines, rails, 96# injectors, 2 walbros, etc.. A mid ten sec street car fueled by cheap pump gas is probably good enough for most owners and more than enough to get you into trouble on the street.

 

[WIKEDV6]

Some good info here!!Subscribed!!

Prasad

 

[turbocliff]

At A Boy Kevin!

 

[CGASTON]

KevinB, I have been following your post and have to same that I am impressed. Now I think you mentioned it, but are you running all stock set-up (lines, filters)? I know you need to have bigger pump and injectors. What chip are you running? With 90lb injectors, did you have your ecm mod as well? If so, by who? I am thinking about running E85 since there are pumps every wherr herr!

 

[KevinB]

I'm running stock lines, stock filter, homemade double pumper, 96# injectors. I do not run a stock ecu. I have an accel gen7 and do the tuning myself with the help of Lonnie Diers. You can get that setup or a fast classic for under 1000$.

 

[KevinB]

I think I have surpassed what I would do on cheap race gas. Now the question is will the e85 come close to c16???? Does anyone know a small cubed turbo car that has matched their c16 numbers?

 

[CGASTON]

Did you or have you tried doing so with stock ecm? How does your management system work with MAF Trans and scanmaster?

 

[WIKEDV6]

I think I have surpassed what I would do on cheap race gas. Now the question is will the e85 come close to c16???? Does anyone know a small cubed turbo car that has matched their c16 numbers?

What I was told by a good reputable shop in the Chicago area that tunes bunch of Supras and other Forced Induction cars is; E85 will blow the doors off 110 race gas and better than Q16 in the sense that it will make same Hp or more also it will make about 100-150 lbs more torque! In his book, it is the best fuel out there along with all the cooling aspect of it as well.

I don’t know the difference between Q16 and C16. I was also told by Dan from Whites Racing that he had a GN on the dyno that made 650 HP or so on Q16 made close to 750 on E85.

These are all info that I was told, I have no real world experience. I know bunch of local guys in the Chicago and Iowa area runs this stuff and some of the cars are 11 and 12 sec cars. They really can't get the car to knock even over 30 psi.

HTH
Prasad

 

[Alky V6]

What I was told by a good reputable shop in the Chicago area that tunes bunch of Supras and other Forced Induction cars is; E85 will blow the doors off 110 race gas and better than Q16 in the sense that it will make same Hp or more also it will make about 100-150 lbs more torque! In his book, it is the best fuel out there along with all the cooling aspect of it as well.

I don’t know the difference between Q16 and C16. I was also told by Dan from Whites Racing that he had a GN on the dyno that made 650 HP or so on Q16 made close to 750 on E85.

These are all info that I was told, I have no real world experience. I know bunch of local guys in the Chicago and Iowa area runs this stuff and some of the cars are 11 and 12 sec cars. They really can't get the car to knock even over 30 psi.

HTH
Prasad

I have to correct you on one thing. E85 is the best high performance fuel for the price. It doesn't beat methanol for performance.

 

[CGASTON]

C16 is rated at 100 octane with no additives. Q16 Zi dont know about!

 

[WIKEDV6]

I have to correct you on one thing. E85 is the best high performance fuel for the price. It doesn't beat methanol for performance.

I am sure you are right Donnie, that's why I said I have no real world experience with this stuff just passing on what I was told. You on the other hand do have big time experience with Methanol!

Prasad