Tso tsm ths

[6APPEAL]

Racing is $$'s, but a dedicated racecar is $$$$'s plus truck and trailer. But, sometimes just 1 or 2 parts on your car throw you out of a class. Seems that's always been the issue for me. I've built my cars for me without looking at any class rules. Racing is an afterthought. The car I'm currently rebuilding has the same issues as everyone cash, kids, and time.

Take for example, the car I'm working on now can't run in THS due to having a 9" rearend. It didn't have a factory rear end when I bought it and I got a great deal on the 9" (free for helping a neighbor out:biggrin. It most certainly can't compete in TSM with a street motor (no stroker, no Al heads, no roller cam), full interior, A/C, stereo and car seats for the kids. So, I will continue to drive to the events, sit in the stands and watch with no intentions of spending money on parts to replace something that works just to "fit" in a race class.

 

[Kip]

Take for example, the car I'm working on now can't run in THS due to having a 9" rearend. It didn't have a factory rear end when I bought it and I got a great deal on the 9" (free for helping a neighbor out:biggrin. It most certainly can't compete in TSM with a street motor (no stroker, no Al heads, no roller cam), full interior, A/C, stereo and car seats for the kids. So, I will continue to drive to the events, sit in the stands and watch with no intentions of spending money on parts to replace something that works just to "fit" in a race class.

Don't take this the wrong way, if the only thing that is keeping your car out of THS is the rear end and you really want to race in it you could sell the 9 inch and use that money to get a 8.5 back under the car. If all goes well you might not spend a dime. We would love to have you in the class.

Take care, Kip

 

[ttypewhite]

THS in IMO is on the rise, so I would not touch that class.
TSM & TSO I would make it into a bracket racing class, because the fast are too fast and the guys on the other side of the ladder are not interested in not being able to compete. I would have qualifying runs done in terms of the fastest cars (ALL OUT, NO SAND BAGGING) to the slowest. Just like it is currently done. Then a average is taken on 3 runs made for each car. That average is your dial in. That average also gives incentives. Meaning #1, #2, #3 qualifiers get a bonus of $$$$ which is determined on the amount of racers present. If there is a gap of 2 tenths between cars, run them heads up cause if you get caught sleeping your done. If there is a huge gap between racers, use the average of qualifying runs and make it interesting for both the racers and the crowd watching (bracket race). So there is a incentive to run the best times and a incentive for others to join in and compete that don't have as much power as the top dogs. 3 to 4 cars racing in a class is not a event. Closing the gap makes more cars show up and more excitement for the fans to watch.

Mixing TSM and TSO is not realistic, there is too much of a gap in et and mph to merge the two. TSL on the other hand should catch a weight break and merge that into TSO. That would be awesome.

What it boils down to is stepping out of your comfort zone of having a big cushion and closing the gap to have a ALL OUT racing event. Just my 2 cents.

 

[laz]

I think that anyone that builds a tsl tso or tsm will race just for the class not the money . Lets be realistic travel and lodging is more than you can win unless your running for 10,000 . The 2 things hurting the buick event is the cost of traveling and the weather once the cooler weather comes in things will pick up .

 

[Brad T]

Just leave it alone . If you only have two cars in the class let them run and pay what you can . Honestly if it was ever about the money who would spend $50,000 on a car and then $1,000 or $2000 in fuel, motels and entry fees for them and the crew to race for a few hundred bucks and some discount coupons at vendors . The pay out is nice and helps but we all do it for the competition and the love of our cars .

As far as the car count there are at least three or four more TSO cars out there. It is just a matter of getting the stars aligned to have them all running and ready at the same time to have a full 8 car field .

 

[jetmech]

Why not try the open rules idea and see if the car count goes up. Go with weight , turbo, . I know its not fair to the people that built their cars for the class but wouldn't you guys want a fuller field. What's is there to lose. I would race ths at MWBC with a 61 turbo no a/c th350 trans if they allowed me. Would anyone else race a certain class if the rules were opened up. Otherwise I will be there on sunday for test and tune. Thanks, Rich

 

[XXQUICK6XX]

I was there to race TSM. Blew a hose off and milk shaked my oil on a qualifying pass. A lot of things were not good before I made my pass. Start shut off mutiple times???

Steve

 

[SS/GN]

THS in IMO is on the rise, so I would not touch that class.
TSM & TSO I would make it into a bracket racing class, because the fast are too fast and the guys on the other side of the ladder are not interested in not being able to compete. I would have qualifying runs done in terms of the fastest cars (ALL OUT, NO SAND BAGGING) to the slowest. Just like it is currently done. Then a average is taken on 3 runs made for each car. That average is your dial in. That average also gives incentives. Meaning #1, #2, #3 qualifiers get a bonus of $$$$ which is determined on the amount of racers present. If there is a gap of 2 tenths between cars, run them heads up cause if you get caught sleeping your done. If there is a huge gap between racers, use the average of qualifying runs and make it interesting for both the racers and the crowd watching (bracket race). So there is a incentive to run the best times and a incentive for others to join in and compete that don't have as much power as the top dogs. 3 to 4 cars racing in a class is not a event. Closing the gap makes more cars show up and more excitement for the fans to watch.

Mixing TSM and TSO is not realistic, there is too much of a gap in et and mph to merge the two. TSL on the other hand should catch a weight break and merge that into TSO. That would be awesome.

What it boils down to is stepping out of your comfort zone of having a big cushion and closing the gap to have a ALL OUT racing event. Just my 2 cents.

Watched this last weekend at the OSCA,they called it pro comp and open comp.Good idea:biggrin:.Racing is changing fast and not all for the good.We have to find some common ground to all have a place to race.JMHO

Kevin

Kevin

 

[its2qik]

let me preface this as it is not a thread to start a bitch session, but how to figure out how to increase the car count. I do not know where the best place to to post this so if you move thread it is fine by me.

As you know the BPG hosted a Buick event this past weekend and to be honest it was disappointing car count for these classes and I as head of the BPG I am wondering what can be done to increase the car count. Let me first stress that a lax in Safety requirements for the cars is not going to happen. I know we paid out over 13K in cash and Gift Certificates from various donors. The BPG paid out even though there was not a full car count in each class.(min 8 cars). I know there was an issue with a TSM car wanting to Run TSO but that is not the BPG's call.

I aka the BPG are looking to increase the car count for these classes...Now I know that the economy plays a major part but for the past years it seems there has not been a full field.

Are the rules too restrictive...can you combine TSO and TSM or post it publicly that any TSM car can run with TSO..to make a full field...

Again just asking how the BPG can increase the car count and maybe roll it over to the other events....I know with talking to those that attended the past 2 events we had a great car count...even if you take away the V8 cars.

please post constructive input as all the Clubs and Events can benefit.

Just a few thoughts from a first timer at a BPG event. I was there with my TTA for the reunion... Had a great time, btw, even though our Buick-powered cars have never been allowed to compete in the Buick class races, from what I understand. Oh well, too bad for you guys. You might have more cars if you did, don't you think?????

Sorry, but as a first-timer I came away from this event thinking that this Buick racing stuff is DYING.... Like, stick-a-fork in it, dying. Maybe I just attended the wrong event as a first-timer?

Where are the younger people at these events? I could count on one hand the number of guys at this recent event under the age of 25yrs. old. Seriously. Unless you guys somehow pass on your love of these cars to the next generation, its just a matter of time till you can turn the lights out.

 

[Kip]

,even though our Buick-powered cars have never been allowed to compete in the Buick class races, from what I understand. Oh well, too bad for you guys. You might have more cars if you did, don't you think?????

Just to be clear THS welcomes TTAs and they are clearly covered in the rules.

See ya, Kip

 

[BobbyBuick]

If TSM becomes a bracket class Im out!.Once you race heads up it is hard to go back.I havnt quit yet and im running a second slower

 

[Dusty Bradford]

There's clearly a line around 9.80 and slower where the cars will turn out for the classes. Low 9's even less, Low 8's even less than that. The money was thought to bring them out but now it's obvious there are only so many guys who are willing to build a car to run at the TSM and TSO levels despite what the classes pay.

 

[turbocliff]

There's clearly a line around 9.80 and slower where the cars will turn out for the classes. Low 9's even less, Low 8's even less than that. The money was thought to bring them out but now it's obvious there are only so many guys who are willing to build a car to run at the TSM and TSO levels despite what the classes pay.

Exactly.

I was on vacation and didnt go to BPG, but intended to race TSO at the midwest challenge this month only to find they wont be running that class?? I plan on racing TSO at Bowling Green, and due to it being in october I hope that the turnout will be good for both TSO and TSM because its end of the season, better weather, guys have finished putting their cars together, etc.... However, IMO the future of both classes I think is definitely in jeopardy. Changing them to index classes I don't believe is an option, but opening up the rules I think would be what it would take in order to get the car count up for both. Theres not a huge amount of people out the building / racing sub 9.50 buicks with stage motors or 109s to begin with, and of the people that do, many don't fit exactly into the rules for either class... In order to start seeing qualifying ladders with a full field again my suggestion for rule changes would be as follows:

TSM = 109 Block, 3300lb min weight, stock suspension, 28X10.5 non W slick max tire size (or equivelant radial), no wheelie bars., No nitrous.
TSO = Any buick v6 block, 3000lb min weight, stock suspension, 28 X 10.5 non W slick (or equivelant radial), no wheelie bars., No nitrous.

 

[Mike E]

I'm building my car to run TSO and local 275 racing. Might be ready to race late next year. If TSO is switched to index racing, I won't bother to drive a long distance to race the buick specific stuff. At most I would go to BG if it's switched to index racing. I can index race anywhere almost any weekend.

What is the issue with low car counts? If it's payout, I personally don't care about the payouts. A low budget TSO car is with a decent trailer to tow it in is $50K . I don't think a few $1K races is going to tempt someone to build a tso car. Sure it's nice to make a little money at the track but anybody that goes racing at the level of tsm or tso is kidding themselves if they are relying on a hefty payout to support the costs to race.

Major changes were made to the tso rules this year. Changes that I think were for the better to allow the cars to be competitive in other series. It's going to take time for people to make those changes. Surely I'm not the only person out there with a car in progress.

I also agree that less rules opens the class up for more people. Maybe it's time to let the backhalved big tire cars come run tso or let the v8 cars come play. It would be more fun than only getting two rounds of racing.

 

[turbocliff]

I agree with MeanMike also. I wouldnt be traveling to index race. I too just built my car over last winter and had no intentions of fitting into the TSO rules from 2010, and had installed a forward facing turbo, liquid cooler, etc planning on local racing only but fortunately the TSO rules were opened up a bit for 2011 and as it turns out the only thing I need to do is replace my downpipe, which I am willing to do. I hope to see a good turnout at BG... but anticipate that if the rules in TSO / TSM arent opened up quite a bit more that car counts for events in 2012 are going to be very thin......

 

[KevinB]

I agree with MeanMike also. I wouldnt be traveling to index race. I too just built my car over last winter and had no intentions of fitting into the TSO rules from 2010, and had installed a forward facing turbo, liquid cooler, etc planning on local racing only but fortunately the TSO rules were opened up a bit for 2011 and as it turns out the only thing I need to do is replace my downpipe, which I am willing to do. I hope to see a good turnout at BG... but anticipate that if the rules in TSO / TSM arent opened up quite a bit more that car counts for events in 2012 are going to be very thin......

I'm with cliff. If ths ever goes to index racing or brackets, I will stay home. I am having more fun at the weekly racing events anyways and its 15 minutes away.

I think bowling green is going to be big. Its at a great time of the year for racing, more central, better track, less rules, and its the nationals.

If the bpg and Norwalk event would combine and hold the race at Norwalk in may, I think we would have a huge event.

 

[quickt]

Does anyone learn anything from past experience???????

Every time rules open up more cars do fit the rules and participation still goes down. Open them up more will help nothing. Do you think that the ET of the fast cars has anything to do with this? Maybe just maybe with an index you might get the fellas that are close as they feel they have a shot to win. IMO the 2 or 3 racers you lose over the index might be worth the 10 that might come in to race. No way to make a change and not hurt someone. Guys that I know personally that were in TSM or wanted to go to TSM told me " The cars are going to Fast " Thats the deterrent. The ET level of the fast cars is way ahead of the curve. I personally say thats great and love heads up competition on a given set of rules as I personally find it challenging. But its not good for the attendance business. We had a knock down drag out here on this board 2-3 years ago on low payouts being the root cause of attendance. Payouts went up participation still declined. I dont know the answer sure wish I did. But you got to try something.

 

[quickt]

I'm with cliff. If ths ever goes to index racing or brackets, I will stay home.

Index racing is not brackets.

 

[toofastforyou]

Does anyone learn anything from past experience???????

Do you think that the ET of the fast cars has anything to do with this?

Yes, definitely. It's not everyone who can afford a high dollar TSM or TSO or whatever class car. The fastest cars might be fun to watch, but not necessarily fun to race against, which in my opinion discourages some racers from participating. I know that some guys here don't want to hear anything about this, but the only alternative is b-r-a-c-k-e-t racing to give everyone a chance. :redface: I'm saying this from my own experience back when I was racing in NHRA's "super stock" classes...It was getting so expensive that there was no fun to be had especially when you had to compete against the "big" guys...You just knew from the start that there wasn't a chance for you to get past first round.


Claude.

 

[ijames]

I think the horrible weather forecast (and the heavy rains that came down right as racing was ending ) explains the poor turnout at the tb.com nationals in spite of the awesome payouts and program. Just bad luck there. The turnout for the days at Richard Clark's shop was definitely up over last year.

At BPG, I was impressed Friday because to my uncalibrated eye it looked like there were more vehicles in the pits than last year's Friday, and noticeably more came in Saturday (in years past it seemed the count was about the same Fri and Sat). I was surprised Sunday because instead of the car count going way up as the locals came in for just race day, it seemed to me that there were fewer cars than on Saturday! Where were all the "day-trippers" who usually come out just on race day? Yes it was hot, most racers seemed to be 2-3 tenths off their normal times but everyone faced the same handicap so it was still an even race. There was one shower Friday evening as things were winding down anyway, and that was it for the weekend. Pretty good for Ohio in the summer, where a shower a day is almost normal.

Remember when the BPG was formed it seemed to be 80-85% v8 members and 15-20% turbo v6 members. It seems to me that the percentage of turbo v6's has been rising each year.

I spectate at several Buick events that have tsm, tso, and other heads up classes each year (tb.com, BPG, and Northeast Regional in MD every year, Norwalk a couple of times a few years ago, Reynolds once two years ago), and I have to say I wasn't that surprised at the car count in tsm and tso. Many tso cars have dropped off over the last 3-4 years, and while a few have built new cars for the class they don't seem to travel to all the events, they only come out to their local tracks. Don Cruz is the real exception, traveling anywhere and everywhere . His stepping up to tso also helped tsm, in my opinion, because he was so dominant in that class. Jason White was hard on his heels and now is the car to beat, but at least the finals aren't Don-Jason every time (I know I'm exaggerating a little) and all it takes is one mistake along the way and anyone can win. Of course, the flip side of that is now the tso situation, with Don dominating that class now. As for tsm cars running tso, the times I've seen that were when there were only 1-3 cars in each class, and at least twice the tso finals were Don in tso and Jason in tsm trim - basically it was a way for Jason to run in both classes and pick up an effortless second place check in tso as Don beat him by a second. Is having another car in the class worth it if it is that uncompetitive?

Anyway, no answers just some random observations.