artrenee10
Older...wiser...and broker...
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THANKS!!!
Thanks
Steve Chambers
Thanks
Steve Chambers
What is the biggest and baddest stock location IC now that CAS and MPE are out?
- Thread starter Intercooler
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Mease Performance
Performance Fabrication/Supporting Vendor
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brick
thanks for the linkies brick
You're alright in my book....sometimes LOL
J/K
thanks for the linkies brick
You're alright in my book....sometimes LOL
J/K
turbo87limited
why am i always broke?
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Nick, I was wondering why you deleted my post. I said nothing derogatory about anybody or anything. Not upset, just curious?
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Originally posted by turbo87limited
Nick, I was wondering why you deleted my post. I said nothing derogatory about anybody or anything. Not upset, just curious?
Then I did it by accident when the others were done, sorry. It is a little complicated in a thread like this with lots of posts.
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In my opinion if you rule out CAS and MPE your best bet is thunder fab.
And if you think that by doing dyno runs or strip runs with different intercoolers is a test of how efficient an IC is, your wrong. There are so many variables I still can not believe vendors try this. It always seems to work out to which ever vendor does the test, comes out on top. Just like ESP did a few years ago on thier FMIC, and now MPE. MPE, its a waste of your time and GMHTP time. Your larger, new stretch core looks great and is probably right up there if not the best, but
FLOW THE CORES IN A FLOW TUNNEL AND BE DONE WITH IT!!!
This way you have the same temp going in the IC every time, and the room conditions are always the same on each test. Along with a slew of other variables that are controllable in the flow tunnel that are not on a hot car thats been run on and off for about 2 hours in a changing room climate and under hood temps.
And, extruded tube is far superior to Buicks 1987 cores. Ask an IC company if you took the same sized core from Buick in 87 and a bar and plate or extruded tube from 03, which one would flow more cfm@1.5 and be more efficient? Ya, its not real hard to figure out that answer.
Area for area, the stocker blows. Spend the extra money and go for overall core area, a new core and a huge inlet neck.
Thats my .0214323 on this
And if you think that by doing dyno runs or strip runs with different intercoolers is a test of how efficient an IC is, your wrong. There are so many variables I still can not believe vendors try this. It always seems to work out to which ever vendor does the test, comes out on top. Just like ESP did a few years ago on thier FMIC, and now MPE. MPE, its a waste of your time and GMHTP time. Your larger, new stretch core looks great and is probably right up there if not the best, but
FLOW THE CORES IN A FLOW TUNNEL AND BE DONE WITH IT!!!
This way you have the same temp going in the IC every time, and the room conditions are always the same on each test. Along with a slew of other variables that are controllable in the flow tunnel that are not on a hot car thats been run on and off for about 2 hours in a changing room climate and under hood temps.
And, extruded tube is far superior to Buicks 1987 cores. Ask an IC company if you took the same sized core from Buick in 87 and a bar and plate or extruded tube from 03, which one would flow more cfm@1.5 and be more efficient? Ya, its not real hard to figure out that answer.
Area for area, the stocker blows. Spend the extra money and go for overall core area, a new core and a huge inlet neck.
Thats my .0214323 on this
Mease Performance
Performance Fabrication/Supporting Vendor
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Originally posted by DR.BOOSTER
In my opinion if you rule out CAS and MPE your best bet is thunder fab.
And if you think that by doing dyno runs or strip runs with different intercoolers is a test of how efficient an IC is, your wrong. There are so many variables I still can not believe vendors try this. It always seems to work out to which ever vendor does the test, comes out on top. Just like ESP did a few years ago on thier FMIC, and now MPE. MPE, its a waste of your time and GMHTP time. Your larger, new stretch core looks great and is probably right up there if not the best, but
FLOW THE CORES IN A FLOW TUNNEL AND BE DONE WITH IT!!!
This way you have the same temp going in the IC every time, and the room conditions are always the same on each test. Along with a slew of other variables that are controllable in the flow tunnel that are not on a hot car thats been run on and off for about 2 hours in a changing room climate and under hood temps.
And, extruded tube is far superior to Buicks 1987 cores. Ask an IC company if you took the same sized core from Buick in 87 and a bar and plate or extruded tube from 03, which one would flow more cfm@1.5 and be more efficient? Ya, its not real hard to figure out that answer.
Area for area, the stocker blows. Spend the extra money and go for overall core area, a new core and a huge inlet neck.
Thats my .0214323 on this
hehe liked that last line LOL hehe
as far as testing goes, the GMHTP article was not a shootout, but a test of one unit, happened to be ours, they did this YES on a different car with a CASV4 also about a year ago I believe with similar testing equipment...
Customer doesnt want to see intercoolers tested in a flow tunnel!
they want to see them tested in REAL world apps....you are again absolutely correct that there is "absolutely" no way possible to keep each test identical....but they're damn good enough to see a difference.
We hadnt a thing to do with the GMHTP writing other than sending them the unit, they did the leg work, and we simply thanked them greatly...stuff like this doesnt get modified!
Lets for example take a few cars which we removed PTE front mounts from and replaced our units.....the cars LOST NO power and we were able to run the SAME boost level as the FM with the stock loc. with no detonation. actually after the swap the cars picked up a few extra #s of boost with our unit....and lag time was greatly reduced (noticeable)
More on this tomorrow....
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MPE, not saying you had rigged the test or anything, just that these tests are not very informative considering there will never be a winner, which IS what the customer wants.
And, I hope they tested your larger, new core, not the Buick Big Boy stretcher.
By the way, that was cool that GMHTP choose your IC. I am sure press that that would cost $1000's in a mag like thiers.
The point is, if the customer knew that a flow tunnel was the ONLY way to compare IC's, they would ask for it to be done. Real world is very hard on comparing the efficiency of an IC. Why GMHTP spent their time and money doing a test with tons of holes in it is beyond me. But, was great for MPE as they used your IC. It would of been cheaper and more informative if they spent the time to flow it the right way along with a few other ICs to really compare the numbers to.
And I agree, FMIC's are slower to spool and are only for bigger turbos or smaller turbos pushing really high boost. A stretch IC with Alky is the ultimate street set up.
I can not wait to get my GT67 slapped on with my FMIC!!
And, I hope they tested your larger, new core, not the Buick Big Boy stretcher.
By the way, that was cool that GMHTP choose your IC. I am sure press that that would cost $1000's in a mag like thiers.
The point is, if the customer knew that a flow tunnel was the ONLY way to compare IC's, they would ask for it to be done. Real world is very hard on comparing the efficiency of an IC. Why GMHTP spent their time and money doing a test with tons of holes in it is beyond me. But, was great for MPE as they used your IC. It would of been cheaper and more informative if they spent the time to flow it the right way along with a few other ICs to really compare the numbers to.
And I agree, FMIC's are slower to spool and are only for bigger turbos or smaller turbos pushing really high boost. A stretch IC with Alky is the ultimate street set up.
I can not wait to get my GT67 slapped on with my FMIC!!
Mease Performance
Performance Fabrication/Supporting Vendor
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ic
MPE, not saying you had rigged the test or anything, just that these tests are not very informative considering there will never be a winner, which IS what the customer wants.
sure there will be a winner! some may be very close and being that testing conditions vary slightly.....you may be true on that
And, I hope they tested your larger, new core, not the Buick Big Boy stretcher.
yes they did...but... HEY WATCH IT NOW!!! our stock core stretches are old school "proven" and they work excellent we've had quite a few sell their V4s in favor of our SMALLER 15row unit and experience noticeable gains
By the way, that was cool that GMHTP choose your IC. I am sure press that that would cost $1000's in a mag like thiers.
Thank you for respecting this!
The point is, if the customer knew that a flow tunnel was the ONLY way to compare IC's, they would ask for it to be done. Real world is very hard on comparing the efficiency of an IC. Why GMHTP spent their time and money doing a test with tons of holes in it is beyond me. But, was great for MPE as they used your IC. It would of been cheaper and more informative if they spent the time to flow it the right way along with a few other ICs to really compare the numbers to.
Absolutely!, altho customer still wants to see "real world" you are absolutely CORRECT on this statement, set the units up, provide VARIABLE HEAT SOURCES to the inlets of each unit, check pressure drop, temp drop, etc.....this way there is no variable......I'd say 80% of those tests in GMHTP though are very accurate
...nature of the beast....Our new IC is one efficient big boy!
I can not wait to get my GT67 slapped on with my FMIC!!
Great turbo, but overkill on the intercooler, customer can use whatever they please, its up to them, personally though if a stock location intercooler has been aleready PROVEN to go low 9s maybe even 8s
the front mount will work, and there are definitely some plusses to running one.....but in our opinion we'd choose a stock loc for the street!
Thank you for your time, if you are interested in doing testing, I can send you a new V4, our 15, 17, 19, 20 row units, and our new INTTR1....the thunder fab, you'd have to grab....that way there IS NO VARIATION and we are sure as h*ll confident that our would take the cake in all tests.....If one of mine comes out on top you've gotta send them all back though
Thanks again for your insight, and the discussion, keep it comin! (now that we got through the politics, lets get technical)
MPE, not saying you had rigged the test or anything, just that these tests are not very informative considering there will never be a winner, which IS what the customer wants.
sure there will be a winner! some may be very close and being that testing conditions vary slightly.....you may be true on that
And, I hope they tested your larger, new core, not the Buick Big Boy stretcher.
yes they did...but... HEY WATCH IT NOW!!! our stock core stretches are old school "proven" and they work excellent we've had quite a few sell their V4s in favor of our SMALLER 15row unit and experience noticeable gains
By the way, that was cool that GMHTP choose your IC. I am sure press that that would cost $1000's in a mag like thiers.
Thank you for respecting this!
The point is, if the customer knew that a flow tunnel was the ONLY way to compare IC's, they would ask for it to be done. Real world is very hard on comparing the efficiency of an IC. Why GMHTP spent their time and money doing a test with tons of holes in it is beyond me. But, was great for MPE as they used your IC. It would of been cheaper and more informative if they spent the time to flow it the right way along with a few other ICs to really compare the numbers to.
Absolutely!, altho customer still wants to see "real world" you are absolutely CORRECT on this statement, set the units up, provide VARIABLE HEAT SOURCES to the inlets of each unit, check pressure drop, temp drop, etc.....this way there is no variable......I'd say 80% of those tests in GMHTP though are very accurate
...nature of the beast....Our new IC is one efficient big boy!I can not wait to get my GT67 slapped on with my FMIC!!
Great turbo, but overkill on the intercooler, customer can use whatever they please, its up to them, personally though if a stock location intercooler has been aleready PROVEN to go low 9s maybe even 8s
the front mount will work, and there are definitely some plusses to running one.....but in our opinion we'd choose a stock loc for the street!Thank you for your time, if you are interested in doing testing, I can send you a new V4, our 15, 17, 19, 20 row units, and our new INTTR1....the thunder fab, you'd have to grab....that way there IS NO VARIATION and we are sure as h*ll confident that our would take the cake in all tests.....If one of mine comes out on top you've gotta send them all back though
Thanks again for your insight, and the discussion, keep it comin! (now that we got through the politics, lets get technical)
Mease Performance
Performance Fabrication/Supporting Vendor
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intercooler comparo
It would be safe to say that we dont like the cores CAS uses period...that is our opinion, but we manufacture the damn things so you cant take a reccomendation like this direct from me! Not only do we not like his cores, but they are POWDERCOATED and as well known in the electrical and thermal industries, powdercoating is a very good insulator, obviously and exactly what you DONT want to coat an intercooler core or tanks with... He uses an extruded fin type core which means that there are no internal "fins" brazed internally to the tubes, the tubes in his units are "extruded" from one die, cut to length, then ambient fins are brazed to the cores (CAS stock location cores do not have internal fins, just ambient fins, the internal area of his tubes is where the problem lies......also with the thickness, the thickness of the tubes is VERY important in determining thermal efficiency...obviously you would want as thin a material POSSIBLE in this area ( you are taking HOT air from one side (inside) and want to cool it with ambient air) thinner is better, but is must be capable of withstanding the boost pressure. Our cores utilize a thin drawn tube with internal fins and external brazed ambient fins.....we have tested both styles of cores and guess which one came out on top? of course...the one we used
As far as comparing cores and core style (NO TANKS).....the CAS V4r will hold its ground vs the INTTR1, but with a much greater internal, and external flow area, I can guarantee we come out on top....
On the core again, the extruded cores weigh about 30% MORE than our style core.......they are less efficient, etc...might be CHEAPER THOUGH!!!
We have a CAS unit sitting in the shop right now, one of my buds picked it up and just noticed that ours weighs CONSIDERABLY LESS (this was compared to a V4) than a MUCH SMALLER INTERCOOLER we weighed it, for just unit vs unit, our intercooler (INTTRI) is almost! 3 pounds lighter than a V4....to add that its MUCH LARGER!
tanks tanks tanks.....we use formed SHEETMETAL end tanks for our intercoolers, the necks are SMOOTH .125" thick castings, there is a MUCH greater transfer efficiency as compared to cast tanks AND necks all other manufacturers use (our necks are cast and tanks are sheetmetal) We are more of a custom fabrication facility, so we can spend the time building our intercoolers the right way, even if it costs us more money.....IT WORKS BETTER!
If anyone would like to do testing to prove results let us know! Nick Micale will be beginning (ssssssshhhhh) testing on our INTTR1 within the VERY near future, if not tomorrow!
Good luck, its all just an opinion though.....until someone actaully does the leg work and testing ...we're not here to take sides...although I can provide you with OUR opinion as you requested.....
Regards!
It would be safe to say that we dont like the cores CAS uses period...that is our opinion, but we manufacture the damn things so you cant take a reccomendation like this direct from me!
Not only do we not like his cores, but they are POWDERCOATED and as well known in the electrical and thermal industries, powdercoating is a very good insulator, obviously and exactly what you DONT want to coat an intercooler core or tanks with... He uses an extruded fin type core which means that there are no internal "fins" brazed internally to the tubes, the tubes in his units are "extruded" from one die, cut to length, then ambient fins are brazed to the cores (CAS stock location cores do not have internal fins, just ambient fins, the internal area of his tubes is where the problem lies......also with the thickness, the thickness of the tubes is VERY important in determining thermal efficiency...obviously you would want as thin a material POSSIBLE in this area ( you are taking HOT air from one side (inside) and want to cool it with ambient air) thinner is better, but is must be capable of withstanding the boost pressure. Our cores utilize a thin drawn tube with internal fins and external brazed ambient fins.....we have tested both styles of cores and guess which one came out on top? of course...the one we used As far as comparing cores and core style (NO TANKS).....the CAS V4r will hold its ground vs the INTTR1, but with a much greater internal, and external flow area, I can guarantee we come out on top....
On the core again, the extruded cores weigh about 30% MORE than our style core.......they are less efficient, etc...might be CHEAPER THOUGH!!!
We have a CAS unit sitting in the shop right now, one of my buds picked it up and just noticed that ours weighs CONSIDERABLY LESS (this was compared to a V4) than a MUCH SMALLER INTERCOOLER we weighed it, for just unit vs unit, our intercooler (INTTRI) is almost! 3 pounds lighter than a V4....to add that its MUCH LARGER!tanks tanks tanks.....we use formed SHEETMETAL end tanks for our intercoolers, the necks are SMOOTH .125" thick castings, there is a MUCH greater transfer efficiency as compared to cast tanks AND necks all other manufacturers use (our necks are cast and tanks are sheetmetal) We are more of a custom fabrication facility, so we can spend the time building our intercoolers the right way, even if it costs us more money.....IT WORKS BETTER!
If anyone would like to do testing to prove results let us know! Nick Micale will be beginning (ssssssshhhhh) testing on our INTTR1 within the VERY near future, if not tomorrow!
Good luck, its all just an opinion though.....until someone actaully does the leg work and testing ...we're not here to take sides...although I can provide you with OUR opinion as you requested.....
Regards!
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Re: intercooler comparo
The plan is to first replace a V-2 with the KME 24 row unit on a very consistant car. If our 103 degree heat lets up by this weekend, it with get its first track test comparison.
Another local GN will have its V-4 replaced by the KME unit to do a comparison also. This test will be at least a week away.
Good or bad, you WILL see these real world results here on TB.com.
Originally posted by Mease Performance
............If anyone would like to do testing to prove results let us know! Nick Micale will be beginning (ssssssshhhhh) testing on our INTTR1 within the VERY near future, if not tomorrow!
...................Regards!
The plan is to first replace a V-2 with the KME 24 row unit on a very consistant car. If our 103 degree heat lets up by this weekend, it with get its first track test comparison.
Another local GN will have its V-4 replaced by the KME unit to do a comparison also. This test will be at least a week away.
Good or bad, you WILL see these real world results here on TB.com.
Keith, the test that you had 1 psig pressure loss in a 3" 90 degree bend, what was the lenght of the pipe and the flow rate of the fluid? I will go to my books, but from the top of my head, you would need a lot of flow to get that kind of pressure loss in a 3" tube with 90 degree bend.
As for the MPE intercooler making more (I am supposing it made more by reading your posts) horsepwer than a V4, that is not a fair comparison unless ALL and I mean ALL the variables are the same on the dyno runs. I say this because I have seen A LOT of parts being dyno tested by some very large magazines. The way some of these magazine guys run tests is rediculous. Basically, you can get any reading off of parts you want with enough dyno pulls.
What we need to do is to get all the big name intercoolers and get them tested by an independent firm that can keep all the variables the same. I will look into this a little further.
As for the MPE intercooler making more (I am supposing it made more by reading your posts) horsepwer than a V4, that is not a fair comparison unless ALL and I mean ALL the variables are the same on the dyno runs. I say this because I have seen A LOT of parts being dyno tested by some very large magazines. The way some of these magazine guys run tests is rediculous. Basically, you can get any reading off of parts you want with enough dyno pulls.
What we need to do is to get all the big name intercoolers and get them tested by an independent firm that can keep all the variables the same. I will look into this a little further.
Dusty Bradford
Well-Known Member
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Keith
I sent you some mail
I sent you some mail
Turbo T/A 1543
New Member
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Keith, any idea when I will receive my "test unit"? Thanks, John Rossington
Thanks, John RossingtonIntercooler
New Member
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Keith,
I just tried to locate one of your intercoolers.... who stocks them I couldn't find anyone with them so time to get to work Maybe you can supply Jack with a couple in the next week or so if you want to sell them 
I just tried to locate one of your intercoolers.... who stocks them
I couldn't find anyone with them so time to get to work Maybe you can supply Jack with a couple in the next week or so if you want to sell them Similar threads
