Stock ECM or Fast XFI???

[JCotton]

Jack your a very nice guy, But I deffinetly know where this is heading and I don't wish to re-hash it. The bottom line is that I KNEW NOTHING about the system and Cal was kind enough to send me a start up tune and I ended up having to limp my Pig rich car around for 6mo (not due to Cal at all). Took it to BG and had Cal look at a few things but it was clear there wasn't enough time to do the FINE tuning issues that were at hand. I was a complete Novice with F.A.S.T and for a 90% street car I myself had No buisness having that system on my street car!!
If any of my freinds ask "Think I should get a f.a.s.t system?" The VERY FIRST thing I ask them would be " What's the car mainly used for?" If they say 60% street or more than I would suggest NO!

For 60% race or more YES!

I SOLD The F.A.S.T system and with that money I bought all the Trans-Pro stuff. TurboDave installed it all for me while I recovered from a surgery and it took him just one week to dial it in and when he was done the car NEVER ran SO GOOD! The cold starts were GREAT (no more 8 starts for it just to idle), The complete drivability of the car was better ALL AROUND!

Jack I could write a Novel with the issues I had with f.a.s.t and I really would like to forget about that point in my life! :biggrin:

Scot W.

Thank you for the compliment Scott. I can feel your pain with having a bad experience, it can happen to anyone and not only with a FAST, but with any of the fore mentioned systems.. Tpro, MER, Gen 2... you name it, there're plenty of systems out there. But the bottom line that is clear here is that, you didn't get the support you looked for and I'm not talking about Cal, for whatever reason, you weren't able to fix it so you bought something else and someone else tuned it.... if you were able to hook up with almost anyone familiar with a FAST, like Dave is with maf-pro, they could have taken care of your needs in about 1 hour. Thats about how long it takes me to fine tune. My start up programs are very close as many have stated... that is key, most customers I can tweak from a distance over the phone.

Your initial example of going from a FAST to something else is really not a fair example considering your story... thats not a knock, just want to be sure we have all the details for a fair assessment. Again, support is everything whether it is a FAST or a maf-pro... thanks for sharing

 

[scot w.]

the CHECK was for having someone close to help tune.

I understand! What i'm getting at here is pretty simple, For a complete Novice person not knowing anything about the F.A.S.T system will be totally confused, overwhelmed, frustrated, mad and lost trying to tune it by himself!!!!!! I know, I know the vendors do an awsome job with there tech support BUT!! there comes a time when the young must leave there mothers! :biggrin: I don't want to speak for others but I personally hate to keep calling the vendor constantly and every single time I want to make a change or need to solve a problem. I done my share of asking people for help with mine and I thank them ALOT! You know who you are!!! I ended up feeling like I was a burden so I ended up very frustrated with a car that wouldn't pull a greasy string out of a cats a*s! and now I had a system in my car that I was now stuck with having to tell the whole car what to do!

IN MY EYE'S IT'S NOT FOR SOMEONE WHO DON'T KNOW THE SYSTEM!!!!

That's all, Just my story!!!

Scot W.

 

[JCotton]

I have to say this...... drivability on the street or strip is second to none with a FAST. I don't care if you drive 100% on the street, if you use a FAST because that is what you want or need, there are virtually no drawbacks. That statement is not just pulled out of the sky either, it's based on fact.:smile:

 

[scot w.]

Thank you for the compliment Scott. I can feel your pain with having a bad experience, it can happen to anyone and not only with a FAST, but with any of the fore mentioned systems.. Tpro, MER, Gen 2... you name it, there're plenty of systems out there. But the bottom line that is clear here is that, you didn't get the support you looked for and I'm not talking about Cal, for whatever reason, you weren't able to fix it so you bought something else and someone else tuned it.... if you were able to hook up with almost anyone familiar with a FAST, like Dave is with maf-pro, they could have taken care of your needs in about 1 hour. Thats about how long it takes me to fine tune. My start up programs are very close as many have stated... that is key, most customers I can tweak from a distance over the phone.

Your initial example of going from a FAST to something else is really not a fair example considering your story... thats not a knock, just want to be sure we have all the details for a fair assessment. Again, support is everything whether it is a FAST or a maf-pro... thanks for sharing

JACK I AGREE 110% !!! That is, and was my point the whole time!! HELP & SUPPORT! HANDS ON IS EVEN BETTER FOR THE NOVICE!!

I would have LOVED to have someone near me that really knew what they were doing to come over and dial my car in. I'm not dumb and all it would have took is for someone to SHOW me what they were doing AND WHY and I would have been fine!
I like to have an understanding on the tuning system that i'm using on my car. If I don't it's gone!!!

The T-pro still uses the stock ECM and therefore still makes the drivability changes on it's own. Thats what I liked about it and for the fact that I used to own the trans + I was more familiar with it anyways. and now i'm helping others with the GenII & T-pro and i'm having a blast doing it!! I only bought the F.A.S.T system because I was told to and then that same person done a little tuning to it and that was it! I was stuck.... It sucks but it was a learning experiance in life I will NEVER FORGET!!

I just helped my buddy get his basically stock 86" GN in the 1/8th from a 8.35 @ 81.96 to a 7.56 @ 91.26 in 5 passes.. with a GenII (and it was set to all base settings= "0")That was to start with!! I know it's not that fast for most of you guy's but that is a few 10th's in only 5passes! that is what is real rewarding for me! I just like to help other fellow TR owners when ever I can..

Jack I'll be calling you soon to discuss a full roller package!

Scot W.

 

[Underboost]

I have a TT Speed Density Chip, Power-logger, Wide band O2, EGT gauge etc.etc., and absolutely love it. I have always used Eric's chips from stock 12's up till now 10.0's, but I think I'm at the point now where I need an XFI. It has a quicker processors for correction = saving your motor. When running the car in the 9's you don't have room for error when tuning with your chip.

I think this is a great thread and as Jack stated, Depending on what your goals are should dictate what tool to choose. FAST or TT Chip

When I buy another GN it will definitely have a TT chip no doubt! I'm glad I found Eric. It's just time to move to that next level of tunability with this car.

 

[Boost231]

This is for my TA alum motor.

No Question Then. XFI :biggrin: Get nick to set you up.

 

[jasjamz]

I agree, this was a good thread. Thanks Jack for your input and cool tude in this issue. I have played with the screens on BS3 and F.a.s.t ,but only the demo stuff on the XFI. Jack you defended yourself well and the XFI tyoe ECUs also. I completely understand your point of veiw.

Scot you are a classic example in my opinion, and am glad you posted.

Jim..well I'm still snickering at your last post...but wish you the best of luck with the ECU.

As for the thread starter please post your goals and combo to assist in the recommendation on what we would do in your shoes.

 

[Boost231]

I have a TT Speed Density Chip, Power-logger, Wide band O2, EGT gauge etc.etc., and absolutely love it. I have always used Eric's chips from stock 12's up till now 10.0's, but I think I'm at the point now where I need an XFI. It has a quicker processors for correction = saving your motor. When running the car in the 9's you don't have room for error when tuning with your chip.

I think this is a great thread and as Jack stated, Depending on what your goals are should dictate what tool to choose. FAST or TT Chip

When I buy another GN it will definitely have a TT chip no doubt! I'm glad I found Eric. It's just time to move to that next level of tunability with this car.

Underboost when are you buying your system? I just dove in the other day. Im going to take the car up to nick in the next few weeks. I know my car is slow but maybe just maybe we can see a 10.99. not sure if it will happen without a T-brake but we can only wish.

 

[Underboost]

Underboost when are you buying your system? I just dove in the other day. Im going to take the car up to nick in the next few weeks. I know my car is slow but maybe just maybe we can see a 10.99. not sure if it will happen without a T-brake but we can only wish.

I'm shooting for a month or two.

You'll get that thing in the 10's don't worry.

 

[Boost231]

right on. i just want a 10.99 and then tune it for 11.50's but i need to upgrade the ujoints in the drive shaft because they have zert fittings on them and also upgrade the trans with a brake.

 

[TURBO 6]

Bottom line is it can be done with a chip or an aftermarket fuel mangement. I will say this, it's a lot easier with a FAST. Anyone that dosen't understand how to tune one didn't have the right teacher or dosen't want to learn. Make a pass, look at the log, make changes accordingly. Click and drag, it's that simple.
I think when you get to a certain performance level it becomes a real benefit to switch to an XFI. The resolution is needed to really make the tune safer. What's the performace level? Personal opinion I guess. We know by Team Grumpy that it's not NEEDED to run 138 mph!

 

[turbojimmy]

Jim..well I'm still snickering at your last post...but wish you the best of luck with the ECU.

What was amusing about it? If you don't want to discuss it here I'll PM you my cell phone and we can have a conversation about it. I value everyone's opinion here and would like to hear yours.

Jim

 

[Fuelie600]

LOL SO what your saying here is that a Complete Novice that knows absolutely NOTHING about the F.A.S.T system can just make those changes as simple as "click & drag?"

For someone who knows advanced knowledge about tuning and have used the f.a.s.t sytem before " It would be fine!!

Scot W.

I'm sorry that your FAST was overwhelming to you Scott, but I don't think what I said was funny. I am a novice to XFI----never touched one before. You don't need advanced knowledge of FAST to use one, but you do need to ask and read. It's like going to school---if you don't ask the teacher questions, and pay attention you'll fail. I can't be more honest than that. Brian:smile:

 

[scot w.]

I'm sorry that your FAST was overwhelming to you Scott, but I don't think what I said was funny. I am a novice to XFI----never touched one before. You don't need advanced knowledge of FAST to use one, but you do need to ask and read. It's like going to school---if you don't ask the teacher questions, and pay attention you'll fail. I can't be more honest than that. Brian:smile:

Well for starters for you and everyone else I would like to clear one thing up! Mine was a Bank to Bank system NOT an XFI!! So I really don't know if the XFI is easyier or not..??

Also I would like to reply on several coments about "not having the right teacher" or "just don't want to learn" or "you do need to ask & read"

Attention!
I ASKED like crazy!!
Knowone wanted to learn it more than me, after all it was my car!!!
I read everything possible to read, Even bought the XFI DVD!!!!

For your information I'm not stupid by NO MEANS! (taking rocketry in 8th grade isn't for the stupid!)

The DRIVABILITY IS THE HARD part!!! PERIOD!!
I knew how to add & remove fuel in the fuel table!! That was easy!
I knew how to add & remove timing!! That was easy!
I liked the graph on the "fast", HELL I liked the system to for that matter! It just took CONSTANT cold start tuning to get the car to run & idle

Since going to the T-Pro It was really nice to be able to walk into my garage and start my car on the first try and have it start right up and imediately put it in reverse and pull out of the garage. NO STARTING IT 6 TIMES, NO DIEING WHEN IT GOES INTO GEAR, NO BLACK "PIG RICH" OUT THE PIPES! I could go on, and on, and ON!!
AGAIN THE DRIVABILITY PERAMATERS ARE THE HARDER PART!!!!!

AGAIN! THE STOCK "ECM" DOES ALL THOSE ADJUSTMENT FOR YOU!!!!
SO WITH THAT SAID, HOW CAN A STAND ALONE MANAGEMENT BE EASYIER THAN A COMPUTER THAT DOES ALL THAT FOR YOU???

I'll Tell you guy's what! I'll be in BG next year just like I am EVERY year and those of you that swear that it's so SIMPLE I'll be more than happy for you to SHOW ME!!!

Untill then, If you don't know me personally please keep the "dumb & childish" comments or jabs to yourself !!

Go ahead and keep preaching the F.A.S.T system to people that don't need it!!!

 

[scot w.]

I am having a new motor built. I am not sure what route to take. ( HIS ORRIGINAL POST!! )
I am planning to run mid to low tens with alky. I like the idea of just going with stock ecm with a TT chip and be done with it. But is that safe? This car will be mostly street driven with a few trips to the track. Thanks for any help!!!

Low to Mid 10's with Alky? (Easy!!)

YOU! like the idea of the Stock ECM and TT chip! (Then do that! Do what you feel the most comfortable with!!!)

SAFE? (SURE! People are doing it ALOT!)

KEY HERE IS: MOSTLY STREET DRIVEN!!! FEW TRIPS TO THE TRACK!!!

I don't feel you need a F.A.S.T system for a MOSTLY STREET DRIVEN CAR!!

Thats my opinion, I'm sure others will say different....

I went 6.76 @ 103.2 in the 1/8th on 93 pumpgas and alky with my street car!!
Scot W.

 

[TKGN1]

I drive my car 90% on the street. Went to XFI last year and wish I would have done it looong before. Drivability is 100X better, get in the car and go, many issues where cleared up with the FAST, absolutely NO KNOCK, 93 pump gas and 11.20s all day. Went from a 11.45 best to a 10.90 with the swap from stock ecm to the XFI first time to track.
Not knocking anyone staying with the stock ecm, but would "suggest" FAST to anyone. On a stock daily driver, yep stay with stock, why spend $2 grand on a stock set-up. On the other hand, if ya have $3-$10(or more ) grand in performance parts the swap is worth every penny IMO.

 

[V6 Beast]

Congradulations on you sales Jack. Im not being sarcastic, really congrats. I would be very interested in hearing the before and after results for the three combos. Lets see how much faster they can go and how long it takes them to do so. Now that's real world proof.
That is the point of buying it right...upgrade...faster...better... right?:wink:

I would be glad to tell what he did for me a few years ago. I tried chips out the ass. Everything from Jay Carter to Max Effort ME-R. At one point I was burning my own chips so I was able to fine tune them. The car never went faster than 10.80. The 1st pass after Jack put FAST on it went 10.80 on way less boost. A few passes later it cranked off a 10.40. Only change was FAST. A couple trips to the track later, I lost the 2nd pump on a pass and FAST dumped in fuel like there was no tommorow. Saved the engine from major damage where a chip would have created a solid block of melted metal. That is my experience with both.:biggrin:

Sully

 

[HighPSI]

I've been away for a few weeks tuning and vacationing and just found this thread. I have to agree that an aftermarket ecu isn't for everyone. I usually draw the line somewhere in the 10's. That's not to say that you can't go faster with the stock ecu or that you can't take advantage of an aftermarket ecu sooner.
When it comes to racing, the stock ecu falls way behind. An XFI is on the winner of every class that allows it (TSM, TSL, & TSO) and the fastest Buick powered vehicle EVER (4.18@165 in the 1/8th last weekend). Ask me how I know
It boils down to customer support and product knowledge. Some customers need more help than others. I do my best to help as many people as possible. With the number of systems we sell, this isn't always easy. We do try and attend every Buick event. Unfortunatly, things can get a little hectic at the track and my time is very limited. This appears to be the case with Scott W, which I am sorry for.

On a side note, I was at Comp (XFI headquarters) last week and am happy to say that there are some pretty neat new products due to release in the near future.

 

[BLACK6PACK]

My brother was having all kinds of problems with chips in his TSM car, so he went with XFI. He knew nothing and wasn't getting a whole lot of help. Finally had a couple of guys sit down with him for an hour or so. At BPG he had the car down in the 9.70s and this last friday had the car down to 9.65 and ran a 140.5 with his own tune, and this is a pretty conservative tune (semi low timing). He has the injectors correcting less than 2% most of the way down the track and is able to bring up the log, move a few fueling curves around and be done in less than a minute. Another nice thing was he was having problems with the hobbs switch (2nd fuel pump) at BPG, and bought a relay off of Cal. Hooked the relay into the fast system, hooked it up to the fuel pump (took about 3 minutes) and had the fast system turning on his pump instead of a hobbs switch.

I have to say that XFI looks intimidating, but if you can get someone to spend an hour with you that knows what they are doing you'll be able to do your own tuning after that. You'll need to know the basics how the chips work to be able to tune, but if you don't know that, you don't know how to tune with a chip either. IE cells the car is running in, fuel correction, timing tables etc.

 

[HighPSI]

The auxillary outputs are another nice option. I built a little harness for him with a relay that he wired into the double pumper. We use those outputs for VSC, boost controller activation, dual fan control, etc...

There are some nice features for the street cars running E85, too.