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Cracked piston on high mileage stock bottom end

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BG dunno
up here we still have one more event , atco buick ford event on the schedule for the 29th
dont know if i want to put the 86 back in shape for some 10.0x's just yet or leave that job for the off season . when i pulled the 86's motor out i threw a completely stock 109 3.8 in it with a stock turbo and 38# injectors , have been driving it around quite a bit lately with a 70 tb pte plenum /powerplate still has the alky (only one nozzle now), fast,cas fmic ,400 trans and vig converter it feels great and drives so much quiter , i might just take it to atco like that and have some fun and try for some 11s or go with the 87 dialed at 11 .50
 
well

i think i might be done with this stock short block..my bearings look like yours Bison on the #3 i pulled out..showing some wear on the sides..haven't hit the copper but i can see it..looks like it is more on the bottom side of the rod bearing than the top..i will try to take a few pics and see what you all think about it.....Bob
 
pics

these are the rod bearings off this #3 cyl..tell what you all think but i think i am done rolling the dice:).....thanks Bob
 

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these are the rod bearings off this #3 cyl..tell what you all think but i think i am done rolling the dice:).....thanks Bob

Strange that the bottom looks worse than the top. Probably pulled some oil in the cylinder as the piston was failing and rattled it on that cylinder. How are the others? My rod bearings looked suprisingly ok. The center mains were the worst
 
Strange that the bottom looks worse than the top. Probably pulled some oil in the cylinder as the piston was failing and rattled it on that cylinder. How are the others? My rod bearings looked suprisingly ok. The center mains were the worst

that's the only one i have checked. that would make sense that maybe it pulled some oil in and rattled it..i will pull a few more rods and see how they look tomorrow...i was told that the center mains are what i need to check for crank twist..i'll pull them tomorrow too and post back..the oil pressure is still great though...thanks Bob
 
I would guess the piston spread during the combustion stroke due to the crack and grabbed the bore. With drag on the piston, the crank was forced to pull the piston and rod downward. The OEM piston clearances are generally tight. Little room for a piston that is spreading apart. What does the skirt of that piston look like?
 
I would guess the piston spread during the combustion stroke due to the crack and grabbed the bore. With drag on the piston, the crank was forced to pull the piston and rod downward. The OEM piston clearances are generally tight. Little room for a piston that is spreading apart. What does the skirt of that piston look like?

the piston skirt has the normal wear..i am going to pull a main and see what one of thos look like.....thanks Bob
 
#2 and #3

well these look pretty good to me..i really don't think i have much crank twist or at least it's not showing on these main bearings...i think i am going to keep beating it:) would love to hear some opinions though.thanks Bob
 

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well these look pretty good to me..i really don't think i have much crank twist or at least it's not showing on these main bearings...i think i am going to keep beating it:) would love to hear some opinions though.thanks Bob

Good bearings are a good thing ... Guess the picture is correct, "This is not a Bill":D
 
well these look pretty good to me..i really don't think i have much crank twist or at least it's not showing on these main bearings...i think i am going to keep beating it:) would love to hear some opinions though.thanks Bob
Those show some evidence of twist. The mating faces of the caps have a lot more metal transfer than mine did also.
 
Oh heck yeah... that's some serious galling on those caps.

Stock bolts I assume ?
 
what to do?

shows how much i know about engine bearings:) time for a better rotating assembly or beat it some more? it's been fun either way:D ....thanks Bob
 
Update

I came across some tuning information that pretty much backs up my theory and prior research discoveries (readings) about the propensity of methanol to preignite under certain circumstances when used with gasoline. It explained the phenomenon very well. I'll try to relay it in a manner that will be easy to understand.

All fuels have a temperature limit where they will autoignite (preignite) without the need of an ignition source. Gasolines are blended in various ways to give each blend a certain burning characteristic for a certain operating window. Part of that operating window is the temperatures that the fuel will be working under in the intake manifold, cylinder, during compression and during combustion.
Methyl alcohol (methanol) is not a blend of different liquids. It is a mono-liquid. The operating parameters that methanol works under is consistent and rigidly set. Where as with gasoline, you can end up with different batches of a particular type of fuel (ex., 91 octane pump gas) that will work differently due to variations in the blending process or seasonal blends.
Gasoline fuels typically operate within a certain temperature range. Different engine configurations will have their own temperature operating range as far as fueling requirements go. Gasoline fuels are accordingly blended to operate within these different temperature ranges and it's up to the tuner to pick the right gasoline to use to match to his engine configuration and operating parameters.
Gasoline engines typically operate at intake, cylinder and combustion temperatures that are significantly higher than methanol fueled engines. When methanol is being used along with gasoline, there is the chance under certain tuning conditions where the intake and/or cylinder temps can get high enough to autoignite the methanol in the charge mixture.
The types of tuning conditions can be: high hp/cid, high boost, high dynamic CR, inadequate intercooling, inefficient turbocharger, incorrect timing, a/f mixture too lean, hot engine. Basically, anything that can get intake or cylinder temps up to the autoignition temperature where the methanol will preignite.
The methanol assists in controlling intake, cylinder and combustion temperatures, but remember that the gasoline plays a part in that too.

An example that was given was where a fellow was using a gasoline/methanol mix and decided to lean the gasoline down a tad bit. An intake backfire occurred blowing the blower intake manifold apart. The interesting thing is, the spark plug only showed one thread heat colored.

I see a problem with running C16 with methanol. C16 allows higher boost limits due to it's resistance to detonation under high pressures and temperatures. This in turn allows the engine to be pushed harder and net higher hp/cid levels. Along with that higher hp/cid comes increased thermal loading of the engine. Higher temps. But,... what are those temperatures? How close is it getting to the autoignition limit of the methanol?

Yes, methanol can resist a lot of compression and pressure, as long as the temperature factor is closely controlled.

There is a wall that you fellows will discover on your own where the power levels per cubic inch are just getting too high for the gas/meth mix. I believe this thread is showing us some evidence of it.
 
I believe this thread is showing us some evidence of it.
Maybe but we would be seeing a lot of hammered bottom ends on built engines. These are all stock pistons and high or very high mileage engines. There is definitely a certain amount of alky that needs to be sprayed in per hp even if there is no detonation.
 
Maybe but we would be seeing a lot of hammered bottom ends on built engines. These are all stock pistons and high or very high mileage engines. There is definitely a certain amount of alky that needs to be sprayed in per hp even if there is no detonation.
I guess you're going to force me to post a pic of the remnants of a rod from one of my blown engines where the bearing looks brand new.
If you have a series of beatings on the rod bearing, it will eventually start to deform. If you have one good blow, you will not always see signs on the bearing. I kept the rod end because I was so surprised that it looked like it had just gone through an engine breakin procedure. I'll dig it up.
The chances that you will be afforded a 'series' of beatings with methanol is slim. Methanol likes to just give you that one big bang. Lights out.
 
This is my theory of what happened with these cracked pistons with little bearing signs.
The pistons being the weak link and the tuneup being pushed hard, the alcohol went into preignition. When alcohol goes into preignition, it is generally very, very violent on parts. It is nothing like detonation with gasoline. If you're using double nozzles, you're using a lot of methanol.
There could have been just one single occurrence that cracked the piston. After the piston is cracked, further preignition in that cylinder would have been impossible due to the drastic reduction in compression and power in that cylinder. So yes. A bearing does not necessarily have to go through a 'series' of beatings. It only takes one good one to take out the weak link.
 
Something else to think about. If you do get in a situation where the methanol does go into preignition, don't think for a moment that it won't take that load of high octane racing gas with it.
 
I wont claim to be an engine expert but after reading this thread it seems to me that these guys are just finding the limits of the stock 22 year old cast psitons! There are quite a few stock cranks and stock rods in the 9's but not many stock pistons and I think we are seeing why. I think its amazing that the 22 year old pistons are holding up as well as they do! Grumpy's daughter's car went a lot of low 10's and quite a few high 9's on pump gass and alky and is still together and I thinks its only real difference is that motor has forged pistons. I had a mid 10 second T Type a few years back that had a 155K mile motor that I just reringed and put new bearing in and it ran mid 10's for 3 years and when I pulled the motor down almost every piston had some small hairline cracks around the pin area. No major events happened with the motor and it still ran fine I think the pistons were just getting "tired". My T Type never saw any alky(this was 7 years ago before alky was so common) and never really had an detonation issues.
 
I wont claim to be an engine expert but after reading this thread it seems to me that these guys are just finding the limits of the stock 22 year old cast psitons! There are quite a few stock cranks and stock rods in the 9's but not many stock pistons and I think we are seeing why. I think its amazing that the 22 year old pistons are holding up as well as they do! Grumpy's daughter's car went a lot of low 10's and quite a few high 9's on pump gass and alky and is still together and I thinks its only real difference is that motor has forged pistons. I had a mid 10 second T Type a few years back that had a 155K mile motor that I just reringed and put new bearing in and it ran mid 10's for 3 years and when I pulled the motor down almost every piston had some small hairline cracks around the pin area. No major events happened with the motor and it still ran fine I think the pistons were just getting "tired". My T Type never saw any alky(this was 7 years ago before alky was so common) and never really had an detonation issues.
Yes. I agree with you completely. Pushing cast pistons like this is silly. But, what about the fella that then replaced the cast pistons with better and then ended up folding a rod?
 
Yes. I agree with you completely. Pushing cast pistons like this is silly. But, what about the fella that then replaced the cast pistons with better and then ended up folding a rod?

Like I said I don't know for sure and I am just speculating but I would guess that the rod was fatigued. Turbo1Dr said the motor had been running in 6's for 6 years and a lot of street driving also so I would think the rod was just "tired" also but like I said I don't know the whole situation. I am pretty sure that Turbo1DR doesn't run alky though because I am think he has the switchable fuel system with 2 sets of injectors that switches back and forth from pump gas to race gas.
 
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