Seeking 109 Engine Building Advice

[Luke]

I'm finally going to make my move this coming January/February. I've had my 87 Buick since 2004 and the time has come for me to build up the car the way I feel it should be. I am seeking advice on a few different aspects of building a high performance "109" (25526109) turbo buick engine in the near future. This will be my first time building an engine so I've enlisted the help of a good friend of mine who's been building engines since he was a sperm. I've been slowly saving money and gathering the parts needed start the build by getting all my specs ready for the machine shop since 2008. During this time I've been doing lots of web research and forum searching to gather all the information I need but I've come across a few "opinions-like-a$$holes" topics that are making me hesitant to begin the build.

Goals:
Top Priority Strength/Durability
Target Vehicle Weight: 3000lbs in race trim (87 Regal Turbo-T)
Engine: Bottom end must be capable of supporting 700hp+
Target Compression: No Higher than 8.5:1
Goal 1/4 mile ET: 9.999 second capable. Will be primarily trimmed to run a mid-low 10 seconds.
Use: 50/50 Street Strip (no block filler)

I'm not trying to break any records here but I do realize at this power level there's a potential to run into serious problems as I can really only afford to build this one time. Once started I plan document every step of the build on this forum.


Parts:
Factory 109 Block (will be thouroghly checked and magnafluxed)
Crower Billet Steel Crankshaft (Std. Stroke)
Pro-gram Engineering Billet Steel Main Caps
RJC Billet Steel Main Cap Girdle
K1 Billet Steel Connecting Rods (Std. Stroke)
Diamond Forged Aluminum Pistons (.020 over)
Comp Cams Hydraulic Roller Cam 212/212
Front Cover with integrated High Volume oil pump

(I'm open to any new Ideas that will promote strength/rigidity without compromising streetability)


Questions:
1.) Will enlarging the oil passages in mains 2 and 3 to 3/8" compromise the strength of the block? Would 5/16" be enough or am I spliting hairs?
2.) I would think the bearing oil holes must be enlarged to match each main. Is this correct or can you find bearings with the correct sized oiling holes?
3.) In my documentation for the machine shop I've set a target clearences of .0018 for main journals and .0015 for rod journals. Is this too tight for my goals?
4.) What main, rod, and cam bearings should I be going with? (Groved, Coated, Material?) Last I checked, Clevite H bearings were the way to go.)

Any additional suggestions are welcome.

 

[turbofabricator]

Leave the block oil holes as-is. PERIOD!!!! With the only exception would be just a couple of mods: Radius oil galleries in the block and tap the front gallery plugs for threaded pipe plugs. (avail from TA Performance) Drilling the main feeds only weakens an already weak block. No reason to use a high volume oil pump. If you want an efficient oil pump, buy the TA pump cover and run external oil lines. I did this on a StageII WITH high volume pump on a highly modded stock timing cover (14 bolt) and it made 150psi at IDLE!!!!! Use the bearing holes as-is, too. I add a very small groove from the feed hole to the aft side of the thrust bearing. You can do this with a razor blade and only about .005-.008" deep. Federal Mogul Race bearings or just plain 'ol Clevite77 bearings work fine. I've never had a bearing failure that was casued by a std. bearing, including aluminum bearings. I've had lots of bearing failures, but all were from detonation which will kill even an unobtainium roller bearing. You can spend alot of money on the trick-of-the-month coatings and they'll still fail when the block flexes and the crank touches it for even a nano-second. Go for it if you like, but I have found no gain. (but then again, I'm new to this Buick thing, and have only been building them for 25 years) The most important thing to buy for your engine build is a GOOD TUNE-UP! 700HP is pushing a 109 block. Very do-able, though. Why not stroke it? Same price. (unless you already have the crank) Good heads, 220/230 cam, mechanical roller. Change timing chains often, as they break easily with 250+lbs of seat pressure. 700 hp is possible with a hydraulic roller, but usually needs 4.0" bore size. Lots of boost and Q16 fuel. but again..........TUNE-UP! Call Cal Hartline and have him tune it for you. Best money you can spend on an engine of this caliber.

 

[Nick Micale]

Ken covered some very important items, and fully I agree with him, but here are a couple more comments.

First, I was not aware that K-1 had billet rods, just forged? Other than the 109 block, the forged rods will now be the weak link. Both forged rods and crank will be more than adaquate in this build.

Like Ken stated, why not go with a stroker crank since you plan to use a very expensive Crower billet, either one is ~$2700?

Follow Ken's advise on the oiling system, or expect issues.

As far as clearances, you quoted Buick factory specs for the economy carb version, NOT a high performance and RPM, turbo V-6 build, and they will not give you reliable service.

 

[Luke]

Ken & Nick thank both you for your feedback.

Stroker: I had very very serious considerations to make this a stroker motor (Especially after seeing a stock block GN run in the eights with one). I did some research and found that you'll get much more low end power/torque but sacrifice a little power up top. I'm not at all suggesting stroking the motor is bad it was just my choice.

Rods: According to K1's site: http://www.k1technologies.com/Portals/0/Documents/Billet_H-Beam_Rods.pdf the rods are refered to as "Buick V6 H-Beam Billet Rods". But then again, I'm no metallurgist.

Oiling: I was really not thrilled about having the mains drilled out. I should ditch the HV Pump/cover and go with a stock pump/cover. Sounds like the HV pump causes too much stress on the the cam drive. I'll start digging around the forums for external oil line setup. I'd like to see pictures if you have any available.

Cam: Is a 212/212 cam too mild for goals? How much more is to be gained from upping the cam size/duration?

Clearances: How loose should I go?

 

[wickedtt]

You didn't mention what heads your planing to go with and i would go with the JE pistons instead of the Diamonds.

 

[Luke]

I choose Diamond because they were lighter than JE pistons. I do realize there is some article floating about how little crown thickness the diamond pistons have. I have not seen it and cannot find it for the life of me. I'm still going with diamonds because I have not heard any reports of the piston failing because of this.

The heads will be Champion GN1 or TA aluminum and have not made up my mind as to if any porting will be necessary. I welcome any suggestions.

Thanks

 

[Pronto]

3000lbs is very light. What have you done to get it to that? V8Killer's is 3300 and it stripped to the max.
Some sage advice from turbofabricator and Nick. Give Nick a call. You might be better off with a TA block if you serious about 9s.

 

[Luke]

Good eye. You caught me there. 3000lbs for now is an arbitrary and optimistic goal weight. To be totally honest I haven't done much of anything yet. I have an aluminum core support installed, Weld Wheels w/ skinnies, front sway bar removed, tubular LCA and UCAs, and AC is removed. plan on throwing alot of fiberglass at it and stripping the interior for track days. I'll start dealing with that once the motor goes to the machine shop.

 

[Major Nutz]

Mine weighs 3315 with half a tank of gas with a similiar set up as yours but with A/C. Street car power everything! Only aluminum wheels,inner bumper supports, & GN1 heads. Weighed at the Buick/Ford Shootout last October.
Mike

 

[Steve V]

Nick you don't like his clearences so what are your recomendations? .002-.0025? with std pump?

 

[Nick Micale]

Nick you don't like his clearences so what are your recomendations? .002-.0025? with std pump?

Yes Steve, we use those clearances on most builds.

As far as external oiling on a 109 block, that is not really practical or needed on a 9 sec. build, especially if the cover/pump is done properly.

Luke, a forged crank and rods will be more than needed for your goals. Also, it takes serious weight reduction to get a GN under 3400#'s.

 

[Luke]

Thank you all again for this input. I should add that I have found a few posts on this forum that have pictures of some banged up diamond pistons. While it sounds like the damage was attributed to detonation, I'm still going to be cautious about using these pistons. I'd like to hear some more opinions

A few things I had forgot to mention about weight: I have aluminum bumper supports, obviosly spare tire and jack are removed, no power options, stereo and all speakers have been removed. I will also be ditching power steering, and going with a manual brake setup. I was trying to avoid fiberglass doors but may consider using them for track use only. I don't know what else I can do besides a fiberglass front clip and lexan windows?

 

[charlief1]

I just realized you're in Kingsport, just west of where ScottW and TurboDave are. You might want to see where they get their work done. I don't think it's more than 100 miles to either of their places from you.

 

[Nick Micale]

.... I should add that I have found a few posts on this forum that have pictures of some banged up diamond pistons. While it sounds like the damage was attributed to detonation, I'm still going to be cautious about using these pistons....QUOTE]

Diamond also makes a Buick turbo piston with a stock-type dish. I have used these Diamond pistons with no problems.

 

[bison]

I would build this in a stage 2 block. I would also reconsider the compression ratio. You can get it done around 22-23psi with everything in place. Dont scrimp on the converter. HV pumps are overkill most of the time but id run one with those clearances.

 

[SHADOWII]

The heads will be Champion GN1 or TA aluminum and have not made up my mind as to if any porting will be necessary. I welcome any suggestions.

Thanks

I vote for the T/A heads race ported, as much of the h/p is made thru the heads. A T/A block would also fit the bill for longevity and lite weight, plus the option of 3.8 or 4.1. For the cost of the crank, rods and pistons, I would go stroker w/9:1. I presently have the 109 stroker w/8:1, but wish I would have gone 9.5:1 since it is mostly street duty.The "cons" are the price tag. An added $4k for the bare block w/o machine work. The heads are $4k w/rollers and p/p.(ouch!)

 

[Reggie West]

For 50/50 street strip use you will need a good fuel system. Double pumpers in the tank and razors alky kit will be highly essential on the street. You can run on the street with one pump and the alky kit. The alky pump is more than enough.

On the strip it will be a different tune. You may need the second fuel pump to go as fast as you want. And I would run race gas on the strip for sure.

The damaged pistons 9 times out of 10 are detonation issues from a bad tune. And timing is everything in these motors.

Good luck.

 

[turbofabricator]

I think what Reggie is trying to say is: Budget $1,200 for your fuel system. I'll add to that you'll need a good ECM (FAST XFI get's my vote) TA heads over the GN1's. More money, but less chance of cracking. Bigger cam, yes. Buy someones StageII that they are getting rid of. This is a ways off for you, so start looking for a used, built StageII from someone that is getting out of the Buick world. On that note, it would be ALOT cheaper and stronger to build a 5.3 GM truck engine to meet your goals, too. The 2004R trans will NEED to be built by a GOOD shop (Trans Service in Lynnwood Wa. 425-774-4966 has built many 9 second 2004R's) This is going to be a real costly build. Everything will cost you $1,000. Heck, I think spark plugs even cost a grand EACH for an engine producing 140 h.p. per cylinder. Even a quart of oil is $1,000.

 

[Reggie West]

I think what Reggie is trying to say is: Budget $1,200 for your fuel system. I'll add to that you'll need a good ECM (FAST XFI get's my vote) TA heads over the GN1's. More money, but less chance of cracking. Bigger cam, yes. Buy someones StageII that they are getting rid of. This is a ways off for you, so start looking for a used, built StageII from someone that is getting out of the Buick world. On that note, it would be ALOT cheaper and stronger to build a 5.3 GM truck engine to meet your goals, too. The 2004R trans will NEED to be built by a GOOD shop (Trans Service in Lynnwood Wa. 425-774-4966 has built many 9 second 2004R's) This is going to be a real costly build. Everything will cost you $1,000. Heck, I think spark plugs even cost a grand EACH for an engine producing 140 h.p. per cylinder. Even a quart of oil is $1,000.

Yeah what Ken said.

Nick Micale would be a good source of info on the right cam too.

 

[we4Mateo]

Yeah what Ken said.

Nick Micale would be a good source of info on the right cam too.

x2...Everything I read about these Buick motors, 109, SII, T/A, whatever, cam specs are NEVER disclosed from the fast guys. Use a guy who can get you the right combo; Arizona GN, RPE, DLS, etc...